Falling Leaf Blocking System

[Larry R. Shirley]

Hi,

I'm looking for information on the Falling Leaf Blocking system. It's listed in a form I know called 5 Dragons Face the 4 Winds. I don't believe I was shown the form with the falling leafs and wish to learn the difference.

Thank you for your time,

Larry

 

[Flying Crane]

What martial systems is this a part of?

 

[Larry R. Shirley]

Kempo, from the Fred Valire tree

 

[Flying Crane]

Ah-ha. I don’t know if there are any folks here from that lineage and system. If so, perhaps they will speak up.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Hi,

I'm looking for information on the Falling Leaf Blocking system. It's listed in a form I know called 5 Dragons Face the 4 Winds. I don't believe I was shown the form with the falling leafs and wish to learn the difference.

Thank you for your time,

Larry

I don't recall knowing about a falling leaf system inside the form...but then I barely remember the form. There's a part of it that has a very odd downward circular parry...is that in the version you learned?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Hi,

I'm looking for information on the Falling Leaf Blocking system. It's listed in a form I know called 5 Dragons Face the 4 Winds. I don't believe I was shown the form with the falling leafs and wish to learn the difference.

Thank you for your time,

Larry

I checked the kempoinfo archive for the form, and they have the falling leaf blocks listed in the movement section. It goes step by step, so you can find it through the video.

Five Dragons Face the Four Winds

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Side note, I never learned invincible wall. I clicked on it seeing it in the archive, thinking it was a form I learned in a different style of kenpo, and it is not. One of the weirdest forms I've seen though, I recommend people watching it.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Wow

 

[JR 137]

Side note, I never learned invincible wall. I clicked on it seeing it in the archive, thinking it was a form I learned in a different style of kenpo, and it is not. One of the weirdest forms I've seen though, I recommend people watching it.

I especially liked Daniel-san’s crane kick at around :25.

Looks like a sport karate tournament kata. Set it to lights, fog, and music and you’re good to go

Or Billy Ray Valentine’s “Quart of Blood Technique.”

 

[Yokozuna514]

When I say who's the master ? You say, Sho Nuff !

 

[Christopher Adamchek]

Glad you found your answer! - cause i didnt know

But a little search i found:
Aikido has a falling leaf break fall
Okinawa te has a falling leaf block
Kali has a falling leaf sword/stick strike

It was neat to see how all the above have a floating or twirling aspect to them

 

[Flying Crane]

Side note, I never learned invincible wall. I clicked on it seeing it in the archive, thinking it was a form I learned in a different style of kenpo, and it is not. One of the weirdest forms I've seen though, I recommend people watching it.

That is strange to my eye as well.

I saw elements of what looked to be stuff taken from Preying Mantis, possibly Snake, or at least a Shaw Brothers version of Snake, something that could have been from Hung Gar, as well as bits that were similar to some of the Tracy Kenpo I used to do.

Put it in a blender, pour over ice...

 

[punisher73]

That is strange to my eye as well.

I saw elements of what looked to be stuff taken from Preying Mantis, possibly Snake, or at least a Shaw Brothers version of Snake, something that could have been from Hung Gar, as well as bits that were similar to some of the Tracy Kenpo I used to do.

Put it in a blender, pour over ice...

Looking at the form, I also saw many legitimate kung fu elements in the form. I was not a fan of how it was expressed in his performance.

 

[Flying Crane]

Looking at the form, I also saw many legitimate kung fu elements in the form. I was not a fan of how it was expressed in his performance.

Agreed. This is a big issue for me, with systems that like to mix material from different systems. They often do not make sense in their results, and the fundamentals of each component system are poorly understood (if at all) so the expression is just a physical mimicry. It results in a mish-mash that is kinda pointless.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Agreed. This is a big issue for me, with systems that like to mix material from different systems. They often do not make sense in their results, and the fundamentals of each component system are poorly understood (if at all) so the expression is just a physical mimicry. It results in a mish-mash that is kinda pointless.

I do wonder if sometimes what looks (to those from the originating art) like physical mimicry lacking fundamentals, is the technique expressed through the fundamentals of the art it's been incorporated into.

I don't know if that's ever the case, but I do wonder.

 

[Flying Crane]

I do wonder if sometimes what looks (to those from the originating art) like physical mimicry lacking fundamentals, is the technique expressed through the fundamentals of the art it's been incorporated into.

I don't know if that's ever the case, but I do wonder.

That’s a valid point, and in some cases could be true. Some things might work just fine that way.

However, some things are designed to function with a certain foundation in mind. If the material is done without that foundation, it does not work well at all . My own system is one of these. So if it gets mixed into something else and done without the proper foundation, youve got nothing.

In my opinion, mixing different material from Chinese methods like this is going to get you garbage. Mantis, snake, and hung Gar have very different foundations. Throwing them into one form like this would expect that the student switches his very foundation within the form, to accommodate the switch of the component systems. I think it’s a bad approach.

This is why entire systems are built upon a specific foundation. It holds everything together and is more than just a collection of techniques. Consistency is very important.

 

[Yokozuna514]

That’s a valid point, and in some cases could be true. Some things might work just fine that way.

However, some things are designed to function with a certain foundation in mind. If the material is done without that foundation, it does not work well at all . My own system is one of these. So if it gets mixed into something else and done without the proper foundation, youve got nothing.

In my opinion, mixing different material from Chinese methods like this is going to get you garbage. Mantis, snake, and hung Gar have very different foundations. Throwing them into one form like this would expect that the student switches his very foundation within the form, to accommodate the switch of the component systems. I think it’s a bad approach.

This is why entire systems are built upon a specific foundation. It holds everything together and is more than just a collection of techniques. Consistency is very important.

I can certainly understand what you are saying here, however, I would like to suggest that it is POSSIBLE to do this however the probability for success is probably very small for the average practitioner. As it has been said on this board by many different people, there are not too many ways to punch and kick someone. Most martial arts have been influenced by other martial arts throughout history. There is a very high probability that many people have tried to combine elements from one style or system with another with varying degrees of success. In the instances where people were successful in incorporating these elements, new styles were born. If there were or are enough people that recognize some value to what they are being taught, then the style will be perpetuated.

In summary, I think you are probably correct when you say that mixing material from Chinese methods like this is going to get you garbage but I would add for the typical or average student. I wouldn't rule out the possibility that there is or will be someone that will one day be successful at combining these elements to for a new system that will be able to operate with these different foundations perhaps not all at once but in some fashion that will give birth to a new Mantis, Snake, Hung Gar system.

Perhaps that is the optimist in me to think that everything is possible given the proper time, energy and effort mixed with the ability of humans to continuously evolve. Before man landed on the moon, how many people could think of a way to accomplish that ?

 

[Flying Crane]

I can certainly understand what you are saying here, however, I would like to suggest that it is POSSIBLE to do this however the probability for success is probably very small for the average practitioner. As it has been said on this board by many different people, there are not too many ways to punch and kick someone. Most martial arts have been influenced by other martial arts throughout history. There is a very high probability that many people have tried to combine elements from one style or system with another with varying degrees of success. In the instances where people were successful in incorporating these elements, new styles were born. If there were or are enough people that recognize some value to what they are being taught, then the style will be perpetuated.

In summary, I think you are probably correct when you say that mixing material from Chinese methods like this is going to get you garbage but I would add for the typical or average student. I wouldn't rule out the possibility that there is or will be someone that will one day be successful at combining these elements to for a new system that will be able to operate with these different foundations perhaps not all at once but in some fashion that will give birth to a new Mantis, Snake, Hung Gar system.

Perhaps that is the optimist in me to think that everything is possible given the proper time, energy and effort mixed with the ability of humans to continuously evolve. Before man landed on the moon, how many people could think of a way to accomplish that ?

You are correct, although I would say that the probability of a poor result extends beyond the average student and would include most people. Yes, there are some gifted people who can make it work well. These people need to have a very strong understanding of the component systems first, before attempting to mix them. That means a very strong understanding of the full foundation of each, although not necessarily knowing all of the material of each system. Without that depth of understanding for each component system, it’s gonna be garbage.

Not many people have that proper depth of understanding for multiple systems. They may have it for one or even two, but beyond that it becomes more superficial. Then they begin adding superficial technique onto the foundation of a different system, and the result does not work well.

So while I agree with what you are saying, I condition it further and say that few people can do it in a way that makes sense.

What happens tho is that it does not stop garbage from being perpetuated. Someone comes up with a mix of garbage and he teaches it to some students. We live in an age where most people can get through life without ever (or rarely) getting into a fight. The new system is never tested by anyone, not even the creator of the system. But the reality of the modern age allows it to be perpetuated.

 

[Yokozuna514]

You are correct, although I would say that the probability of a poor result extends beyond the average student and would include most people. Yes, there are some gifted people who can make it work well. These people need to have a very strong understanding of the component systems first, before attempting to mix them. That means a very strong understanding of the full foundation of each, although not necessarily knowing all of the material of each system. Without that depth of understanding for each component system, it’s gonna be garbage.

Not many people have that proper depth of understanding for multiple systems. They may have it for one or even two, but beyond that it becomes more superficial. Then they begin adding superficial technique onto the foundation of a different system, and the result does not work well.

So while I agree with what you are saying, I condition it further and say that few people can do it in a way that makes sense.

What happens tho is that it does not stop garbage from being perpetuated. Someone comes up with a mix of garbage and he teaches it to some students. We live in an age where most people can get through life without ever (or rarely) getting into a fight. The new system is never tested by anyone, not even the creator of the system. But the reality of the modern age allows it to be perpetuated.

That is probably a more accurate statement for sure. There wouldn't be many people that are capable of doing this well. Given the amount of wars we have had throughout history and the people that have and continue to try and produce superior hand to hand fighting systems, there are not THAT many in existence compared to the number of people that probably attempted the feat.

It is probably easier these days to perpetuate 'garbage' given that everyone now has access to technology to reach the masses however I think the technology also gives access to people to do proper research before investing their time, energy and effort. So they can sift through the garbage if they wanted too. The problem is people may not really want to know the truth.

I had this discussion with a friend of mine recently. He found it amazing that people were still being duped by McDojos given that the internet can show people what a style is SUPPOSED to be teaching them or they can compare different styles to see what addresses their own personal goals, if they looked hard enough. Having visited a few schools in the area and seeing what is passing as instruction in martial arts, I came to the theory that people really may not want to know or may not want the best 'style' out there. For whatever reason, they may just want an activity that will keep their interest and given them a certain amount of physical fitness each week. They really aren't interested in ever using it to compete or defend themselves so there are schools out there that are addressing these niches. I try not to lose sleep over it and focus in on what I want to do and what my goals are but essentially I can see how garbage can be perpetuated.

 

[jks9199]

I do wonder if sometimes what looks (to those from the originating art) like physical mimicry lacking fundamentals, is the technique expressed through the fundamentals of the art it's been incorporated into.

I don't know if that's ever the case, but I do wonder.

Often, I think. I see people pull an element or technique from a system that they like or thought looked cool... but they lack the systems underlying principles like power genetation or stances... it ends up looking just off. Like someone doing tai chi with a stiff, tight waist.

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