Fake black belts

Bill Mattocks

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no it represents an organisation or federation who have tested that individual to a said standard. If that said person has not been tested by any such organisation then he/she is a fraud. Really that simple.
would you send your kids to a teacher you織ve never checked out?
Nope. But that's caveat emptor again. I know quite a few parents who send their kids to McDojos and are just fine with it. They don't expect them to learn to defend themselves. They look at it like after-school activities.
can you do the same as a medical physician? would that be fraud? If not then what would you do if because of his lack of qualifications you were injured?
Doctors are licensed. Martial artists are not.

there certainly is..but are they taking classes & charging money from students?
Training with a hard buddy in a home gym is not the same is it?
Is it? Do you need a belt in a recognized style to defend yourself?
 
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Jimmythebull

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I've been gentle up to now, but again I will say a bit more clearly,
it織s OK i understand English. you do not need to be upset. ;)

I earned my black belt the traditional way, from a well-known and respected instructor in a style that's known world-wide and respected as well. That doesn't mean I'm highly qualified, or a good teacher, or can defend myself well. It means what it means. I met the standards set by my organization, style and my instructors and was promoted accordingly based on their judgment.
OK that織s my point it織s a known Teacher or organisation, not what you were talking about buying a black belt of the internet & entering a black belt hall of fame or whatever you wrote...tripping yourself up.
Just contradicted yourself.
 

lklawson

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no it represents an organisation or federation who have tested that individual to a said standard. If that said person has not been tested by any such organisation then he/she is a fraud. Really that simple.
So everyone who has ever started their own system, declaring themselves a "master" is a fraud. It's really that simple. Got it. <cough>gracie<cough>
 
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Jimmythebull

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They don't expect them to learn to defend themselves. They look at it like after-school activities.
OK if that織s true why not just soccer or baseball? sorry but that is just silly.


Doctors are licensed. Martial artists are not.
so if an unlicenced Black belt causes you pain or injury which could affect your employment & putting food on the table then this is acceptable? would you sue the man/ woman who caused your financial dilema & hardships?
I would. What if a fake Black belt was teaching your local police officers in restraint & tought them false techniques which could end in serious injury or death? and you were the victim.

Is it? Do you need a belt in a recognized style to defend yourself?
no you don織t i learned to fight on the streets in a working class council area in the UK but AGAIN i will say to you i am not giving out belts & charging fees am i ?
 
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Jimmythebull

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maybe the situation in the USA is different i don織t know but in Europe & where i live it織s not so simple to teach people . Even as a fitness trainer i had to learn courses ..etc. Also i went to college 3 years to learn sport Admin. I do know that to train people as a Black belt you have to also have further qualifications which satisfy social requirments.
 

lklawson

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OK if that織s true why not just soccer or baseball? sorry but that is just silly.
Who cares why? It's not your decision. The parents and/or children like it. Besides, soccer sucks.


so if an unlicenced Black belt
"Unlicensed?" There's no such thing as licenses for black belts.

causes you pain or injury which could affect your employment & putting food on the table then this is acceptable?
The club typically carries insurance for just these circumstances.

would you sue the man/ woman who caused your financial dilema & hardships?
If the club wasn't carrying insurance, then probably.
No you wouldn't.

You'd go to the hospital, emergency room, or Dr. and give them your insurance card. If you had any sort of Disability, either Long Term or Short Term, you get remuneration from your insurance policy. Your insurance carrier then contacts the club's insurance carrier and takes care of their end. If the club doesn't have insurance then your carrier sues the club, not you. The only times you'll sue is if 1) you don't have insurance and the club doesn't have insurance or 2) you're pissed and wanting to get "revenge."

What if a fake Black belt was teaching your local police officers in restraint & tought them false techniques which could end in serious injury or death? and you were the victim.
Can't be worse than what most of them are learning now. And it's their problem anyhow, not yours.
 

Bill Mattocks

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maybe the situation in the USA is different i don織t know but in Europe & where i live it織s not so simple to teach people . Even as a fitness trainer i had to learn courses ..etc. Also i went to college 3 years to learn sport Admin. I do know that to train people as a Black belt you have to also have further qualifications which satisfy social requirments.
Not in the US.
 

lklawson

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maybe the situation in the USA is different i don織t know but in Europe & where i live it織s not so simple to teach people . Even as a fitness trainer i had to learn courses ..etc. Also i went to college 3 years to learn sport Admin.
The U.S. has plenty of goofy over-regulation too. Most states require the equivalent of a college degree to cut hair and paint toe-nails.

I do know that to train people as a Black belt you have to also have further qualifications which satisfy social requirments.
Which part of "Europe?" The requirements are different in France than in England and neither of them are the same as in Chechnya. And that's without expanding to other places like India where teaching martial arts is a key element of at least one of the major religions.
 

Bill Mattocks

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would you Bill, send your kids (if you have kids) to a black belt who you haven織t checked out? honest answer please.
I have a 28 year old daughter and a 8 year old granddaughter. I would NOT send my granddaughter to a black belt that I had not done a lot of research on and probably met with. That's due diligence, it's caveat emptor. The fact that they have a legit dan certificate from a known instructor would not make me instantly trust them, either.
 
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Jimmythebull

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I have a 28 year old daughter and a 8 year old granddaughter. I would NOT send my granddaughter to a black belt that I had not done a lot of research on and probably met with. That's due diligence, it's caveat emptor. The fact that they have a legit dan certificate from a known instructor would not make me instantly trust them, either.
right & why not? you know what i was saying Bill. i remember my son was training in Judo but i knew the instructors & knew their charachters. so i understand your point about ..
The fact that they have a legit dan certificate from a known instructor would not make me instantly trust them, either.
 

Bill Mattocks

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right & why not? you know what i was saying Bill. i remember my son was training in Judo but i knew the instructors & knew their charachters. so i understand your point about ..

But again, and this is my point, it's ON ME to do this. Not the law. Not a government agency. Some parents do not care, and if they don't, why is this anyone else's problem?
 

Bill Mattocks

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your health system & tax payer?
Yeah, that's a big one. Remember we don't have a health system in general. Most of us have private health insurance from employers, retired people have Medicare, retired military have Tricare from the VA and so on.

But you do bring up a valid point. It's always been a question. Why should *I* have to pay more for insurance or taxes because idiots engage in extreme sports and get hurt? What about people who smoke? What about the overweight? What about those like myself, diabetes and heart disease? I just got out of hospital - the bill to my insurance company for a four hour surgery on my heart was $169,000 USD. I didn't have to pay it, my insurance did (and everyone who pays into that insurance presumably). Do we assign blame and costs based on how much of my illness is genetic and how much is my fault from not taking care of myself better?

The bottom line is this. People get hurt for lots of reasons. Preventable and otherwise. As societies, we choose to deal with those costs in terms of insured and uninsured, taxpaying citizens and not. But we don't separate them out based on blame such as "was taught well by a qualified black belt" and "was taught poorly by a fake black belt."

If you wish to pursue that sort of thing, that's civil law - a tort. You can sue someone for having taught you or your child poorly or who lied about their credentials. You can't have them arrested. It's simply not a crime.
 
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Jimmythebull

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Yeah, that's a big one. Remember we don't have a health system in general. Most of us have private health insurance from employers, retired people have Medicare, retired military have Tricare from the VA and so on.

But you do bring up a valid point. It's always been a question. Why should *I* have to pay more for insurance or taxes because idiots engage in extreme sports and get hurt? What about people who smoke? What about the overweight? What about those like myself, diabetes and heart disease? I just got out of hospital - the bill to my insurance company for a four hour surgery on my heart was $169,000 USD. I didn't have to pay it, my insurance did (and everyone who pays into that insurance presumably). Do we assign blame and costs based on how much of my illness is genetic and how much is my fault from not taking care of myself better?

The bottom line is this. People get hurt for lots of reasons. Preventable and otherwise. As societies, we choose to deal with those costs in terms of insured and uninsured, taxpaying citizens and not. But we don't separate them out based on blame such as "was taught well by a qualified black belt" and "was taught poorly by a fake black belt."

If you wish to pursue that sort of thing, that's civil law - a tort. You can sue someone for having taught you or your child poorly or who lied about their credentials. You can't have them arrested. It's simply not a crime.
yeah Bill at the end of the day you are no fake & you said you would check out any instructors for your family. Good man right there. see that織s the protection instinct, no different to any situation where you look after your loved ones.
could be buying a used car..you want to make sure they will be safe in it.
 

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My 2 cents.........not only in the white and colored belt ranks but also within the black belts where there are many different names (titles) given to individuals as some kind of right of passage....In Okinawa it was said you get one belt (white) and through many many years of blood sweat and tears that white belt gets soiled to the point where it begins to change color. After many years it turns black with just plain useage......it is for this reason your belt never gets washed...You will always be a student of the arts but at a point, not locked in stone, you will be called....... Sensei.
 
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Jimmythebull

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My 2 cents.........not only in the white and colored belt ranks but also within the black belts where there are many different names (titles) given to individuals as some kind of right of passage....In Okinawa it was said you get one belt (white) and through many many years of blood sweat and tears that white belt gets soiled to the point where it begins to change color. After many years it turns black with just plain useage......it is for this reason your belt never gets washed...You will always be a student of the arts but at a point, not locked in stone, you will be called....... Sensei.
I believe it was Kano who introduced the kyu Grades.
 

drop bear

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I have a 28 year old daughter and a 8 year old granddaughter. I would NOT send my granddaughter to a black belt that I had not done a lot of research on and probably met with. That's due diligence, it's caveat emptor. The fact that they have a legit dan certificate from a known instructor would not make me instantly trust them, either.

That is more because the system is essentially broken though.

Literally anyone can teach anything in any manner. There is no minimum standard.

So you need to start with no expectation that a martial arts will do anything really. You could be throwing money and time off a cliff.

Basically we are back to the water diviner experiment.

Now obviously we can approach the martial arts with critical thinking and look for evidence of effectiveness in live resisted training. And that martial art will be objectively better.

BJJ has a system in place where students from other clubs are encouraged to visit other clubs and train with live resisted training.

And this makes BJJ better than clubs that do not have this function.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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