European Martial Arts?

[Devon]

I'll happily agree that the Kodokan offered a large part of what Oshchepkov et al were looking for during the early 1900s, especially re. formal pedagogy and organizational model.

Kano's ambition was to impose the European model of sports pedagogy on to traditional Japanese jujitsu. He had both the academic and practical backgrounds, as well as the financial support and organizational abilities to have largely achieved this goal by the time the USSR decided to devise its own official H2H combat systems. This must have been a powerful incentive, especially when contrasted to the Slavic folk styles which were simply "the way we wrestle in Moldavia", etc.

I also acknowledge that the "SAMBO is an ancient Russian martial art" line was Soviet-era propaganda, directly equivalent with the South Korean government's official stance on the history of Tae Kwon Do.

However, IMO to say that the native Russian wrestling styles "probably comprise less than one half of one percent" of SAMBO is to offer an extreme in the other direction. Consider the prevalence of belt-wrestling techniques (ubiquitous throughout Central Asia, not characteristic of pre-WW2 Judo) in the SAMBO curriculum; even acknowledging that the percentages weren't recorded, I'd say that this strongly suggests a technical influence from a greater proportion of Slavic and other folk-wrestling styles. Note, I don't mean "a greater proportion than Judo", just "a greater proportion that .5 of 1 percent".

 

[Mr. E]

However, IMO to say that the native Russian wrestling styles "probably comprise less than one half of one percent" of SAMBO is to offer an extreme in the other direction. Consider the prevalence of belt-wrestling techniques (ubiquitous throughout Central Asia, not characteristic of pre-WW2 Judo) in the SAMBO curriculum; even acknowledging that the percentages weren't recorded, I'd say that this strongly suggests a technical influence from a greater proportion of Slavic and other folk-wrestling styles. Note, I don't mean "a greater proportion than Judo", just "a greater proportion that .5 of 1 percent".

We seem to be on the same page now. Instead of Judo being a small influence, I think we both say that it was perhaps the greatest source.

But I would be interested in the belt fighting stuff. Most of what I see of Sambo just does not have it. The guys that practice in camo don't seem to use it and the guys training for the UFC or Vale Tuado can't use it- spandex issues.

There are know systems of fighting systems from Japan and Mongolia that use the belt quite a lot. We know they existed and were taught with names for individual techniques for centuries.

Since this is a thread about European martial arts, and not just sambo, could you give us more information about these arts and what kind of proof there is on them? You seem well informed about the subject and it is a pleasure reading what you write. If you could point to references, sources and your opinions on how these arts influenced Sambo it would be a good thing for martialtalk IMO.

And is there any chance that some of these arts were created after Sambo? From what little I know, there seems to be a big move in the former Soviet Union to come up with arts that do not link back to Asia. Some of the Cossack fighting styles and such seem to have been created with invented histories. In fact, a lot of what passes as "European" arts seem to have a strong Asian foundation and the proponents seem to be borderline racist in their desire to have an art that is white and not Asian.

But people everywhere did wrestle and there are accounts of them in Europe and elsewhere being taught in the same manner as in Asia. There is such a lack of information on Eastern Europe in this matter. Do you speak or read one of the languages from the region? I would be interested in the sources that are being unearthed about martial arts from this region that are not some sort of propaganda from the Soviet era or since.

 

[Devon]

Belt-wrestling is common to both European and Asian cultures. The most famous and best documented (online, at least) would be Icelandic Glima, Swiss Schwingen (by extension, as Schwingen wrestlers actually grab each other by the shorts rather than by belts per se) and Altai/Tuvan Khuresh, but it's a huge subject; a Google search for "belt wrestling" will reveal the scope of it. There's even an International Belt Wrestling Association, based in Russia, aiming to unite all the various folk-styles while allowing them to retain their unique rules and cultural heritages.

Out of the appriximately 100 standing throws detailed in FILA's Sambo Wrestling, there are roughly 20 belt throws. Applying Occam's razor, I think it's highly likely that they were incorporated from the curricula of various indiginous Russian styles.

I would honestly be very surprized to discover that many, or even any of the Russian folk-styles had been developed after the creation of SAMBO. There's little documented history for the Russian styles available in English, but cognate belt-wrestling styles have centuries of documented tradition.

A small minority of recently-devised Eastern European MAs are associated with "white power" type politics; some of them probably do draw from legitimate folk styles, but their overall histories are highly questionable. I would not say that these comprise "a lot" of European martial arts, though; there are dozens of extant folk-styles (armed as well as unarmed combat) from throughout Europe that have no political or other agendas, nor any influence from Asian styles. It's really only due to the Internet (and to discussions like this one) that these obscure styles have recieved any attention beyond their traditional provinces.