European Martial Arts?

[Bob Hubbard]

I know the question was asked a while back, but I can't find the thread. Are there currently any European martial arts still being taught?

I'm aware of Savate, and the various styles of Fencing, but, is there anything else? I've got a separate thread started for European sword arts in the European sword forum.

Thanks!

 

[Langenschwert]

Keep in mind that the division between armed and unarmed combat is artificial for WMA, so the Kunst des Fechtens is a sword art, an unarmed art, a spear art, a knife art, and so on.

As far as living lineages go, Savate also includes La Canne and Grande Baton.

Armizare is the Italian medieval martial art. Kunst des Fechtens is the German medieval martial art. Both are reconstructed from surving manuals.

Catch wrestling and Jogo do Pau are still taught. There are a few instructors who have a living lineage in Rapier as well.

There is also singlestick fencing and cudgel.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[arnisador]

Would you count Systema?

Boxing and wrestling?

The re-invented Pankration?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Systema is Israeli. I don't think they are considered European.

The others, yup.

 

[Blindside]

Systema is Israeli. I don't think they are considered European.

Systema is Russian.

 

[mrhnau]

Systema is Russian.

If you count Russian, then Sambo
Krav Maga and its variations
catch wrestling

 

[arnisador]

Systema is Israeli. I don't think they are considered European.

Systema is Russian. (Maybe you're thinking of Krav Maga?) Russia straddles Europe and Asia but is usually considered European because the capital is in Europe.

Sambo has some Japanese Judo influences but is basically Russian.

 

[Blindside]

I'm not sure I would include Russia with Europe, in size it is larger than the "European" countries, particularly if you include baltic states. Culturally it is quite distinct as well, and has been sort of a meeting place of east and west.

Lamont

 

[Sukerkin]

That's an interesting point, Blindside.

I think that possibly what is clouding the issue is that the Western European nations tend to be the ones that are labelled as Europe in the media (particularly since the creation of the Common Market (now EEC)).

There are of course the Eastern European states too; those that were part of the Frankenstein conglomerate that was the USSR. Russia itself was considered a European state prior to the Bolshevic Revolution, with it's Royal House intermarrying with the other European Royal Houses (which is why Queen Victoria was related to the Romanov's).

The USSR as was, was typically referred to as straddling Eurasia as it welded together by force both European countries on the West and Asian ones on the East.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Systema is Russian.

Duh.... I had a brain fart. LOL

Thanks for the correction

 

[brokenbonz]

well let's see, at least in my native country (italy) there are:
Bastone Genovese :a cane fighting system from the city of Genova still practiced http://bastonegenovese.gipoco.com/ also in the city of Genova
you'll find savate genovese (the first savate school was opened in Italy not in France so some tend to think genovese savate is closer to the original version) and canne italiana (the italian interpretation of french la canne) http://bastonegenovese.gipoco.com/
Bastone Siciliano/Paranza/Liu-bo : several styles of stick fighting are still practiced on the island of sicily, liu-bo is the sport application http://www.liu-bo.it/ also interesting is a style of sicilian knife fighting called "stiletto di San Michele" http://www.lulu.com/content/302773 the most knowledeble man I know for this systems lives here in NJ and has a series of interesting books on the subject. Also in sicliy there is "strarria" another martial art that uses both empty hands and weapons http://www.strarria.it/index.php. In the region of Puglia (my native region ) there are "scherma Salentina" or "pizzica scherma" a knife fighting systems and the study of "bastone pastorale" or the sheperd stick both systems are still being thought currently http://www.aramire.it/edizioni/pag021.htm. umm am I forgetting anything..let's see you have (if we can count traditional wrestling in) "S'istrumpa" wrestling in the island of Sardenia, oh and by the way "e-vinci/gjustra" wresling in neighboring Corsica (politically part of France) has alot of similar elements in it. Besides these we have Nova Scrima, and Sistema S.A.L. (scherma assalto leone) both teaching a collection of classic systems. I know most of the links are in italian let me know if you need me to translate anything

 

[DavidCC]

On my new online book store I have a section for Western Martial Arts. I would love to include books on any or all of these, can you tell me are there any good books available on any of these arts? Check it out at www.kungfubooksonline.com.

-D

 

[DavidCC]

Just bumping this up, still looking for more references on European martial arts...

thanks
-David

 

[kidswarrior]

Irish shillelagh--neither solely la canne nor a cudgel, although it can act as both or neither. Good resources: http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/GlenDoyle/ and http://www.johnwhurley.com/. In good Irish fashion, these two stalwarts seem to sometimes have a difference of opinion.

 

[frank raud]

Various forms of wrestling, Cumberland, Westmoreland, catch-as-catch can, Bacon wrestling(not what you do at breakfast, a form of standing wrestling originally taught to British troops by S.V. Bacon), Glima, Greco-roman, Lutte.

There is some interest in Bartitsu, the Edwardian art developed by E.W. Barton-Wright, the man who first brought Yukio Tani and Uyenishi to Britain.

 

[Mr. E]

Sambo has some Japanese Judo influences but is basically Russian.

Sambo came from Judo. Later the Russians tried to appeal to nationalism by making it sound like a native Russian art.

With the fall of the Soviet Union some archives have opened up and people are more willing to talk. The story is slowly becoming clearer that Sambo is really a heavily modified form of Judo.

 

[Devon]

I think it's an over-simplification to say the SAMBO is modified Judo; Judo was definitely a major ingredient in the mix, but SAMBO (and the various other martial arts and combat sports that emerged from the same matrix during the 20th century) also drew from a number of indiginous Russian wrestling styles.

 

[Mr. E]

I think it's an over-simplification to say the SAMBO is modified Judo; Judo was definitely a major ingredient in the mix, but SAMBO (and the various other martial arts and combat sports that emerged from the same matrix during the 20th century) also drew from a number of indiginous Russian wrestling styles.

If you know the basics of Sambo and the basics of Kodokan judo, you will see that about 99 percent are the same.

The following page shows some basics of sambo. Any old style judo-ka will be familiar with almost all of it.

http://cclib.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/satbi-e/martart/sambo.html

The rest of the come not so much from Russian styles of martial arts, but European, American Greek and other popular styles and the time. Any native Russian martial art is probably less than half of one percent.

Here is an article on the development of Sambo.

http://cclib.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/satbi-e/statyi/sambo.html

You can read more about how they killed V.S.Oshchepkov to keep the secret of its origin.

The following quote also sheds light on how he went about the development of this art.

Oshchepkov without hesitation threw away many "antiquarian treasures" of judo and resolutely renewed techniques. Obsolete methods were replaced by new effective ones.

Enrichment and developing techniques by different ways was one of the main task of Vasilii Sergeevich. First, he include joint locks on the legs, absent in sport judo. Also, it was used training-competition practice of various Oshepkov's students and himself's one. It developed new features in this enrichment "manner of performing the methods". This practice was received in new, different from classical judo, conditions, and followed by new independent methods and combinations. All this things gave results, but decisive factor was not here.

Oshchepkov analysed all existed international kinds of wrestling, chinese wushu, and a number of national kinds of wrestling from the "application in real fighting" point of view. He was concentrated not only on strikes from wushu, english and french boxing, but also on the methods from "finnish-french" wrestling and some other kinds of wrestling, which Vasilii Sergeevich named "free-style": american free-style wrestling, swiss wrestling, caucasian wrestling and persian wrestling. He specially noted that some methods and, especially, throws, could be applicable as self-defence methods.

 

[Devon]

I'm familiar with SAMBO history as it's become available in English, including Mr. Lukashev's essay and the controversy surrounding the fate of Mr. Oshchepkov. As I said, Judo was a major influence, but I still submit that's it's an over-simplification to say that "SAMBO is modified Judo".

The rest of the come not so much from Russian styles of martial arts, but European, American Greek and other popular styles and the time. Any native Russian martial art is probably less than half of one percent.

I have to hand both the Illustrated Kodokan Judo (1955) and Sambo Wrestling (1972) and I'm thoroughly familiar with pre-WW2 Judo. Bearing in mind that a great deal of jacketed wrestling technique is universal, I still think that the percentages are more diverse than you suggest.

Doesn't the fact that SAMBO claims influences from Tuvan, Chuvash, Moldavian, Yakuts, Armenian, Georgian and Uzbeki styles of wrestling, in addition to American, Swiss, French and many other influences, demonstrate that it's rather more than modified judo?

Incidentally, the H2H project co-ordinated by Oshchepkov, Spiridonov et al. is quite fascinating. AFAIK it's the only time a national goverment has sponsored an ongoing R&D project specifically dedicated to martial arts and combat sport training, and I hope that, eventually, someone does this history justice by recording it for posterity.

 

[Mr. E]

As I said, Judo was a major influence, but I still submit that's it's an over-simplification to say that "SAMBO is modified Judo".

But that does not make it Russian, not really. Not if the major influence was Judo and other arts from outside of Russia.

Doesn't the fact that SAMBO claims influences from Tuvan, Chuvash, Moldavian, Yakuts, Armenian, Georgian and Uzbeki styles of wrestling, in addition to American, Swiss, French and many other influences, demonstrate that it's rather more than modified judo?

But it did come from judo. Judo was the base. That is the point I was trying to make when I first responded. They modified it and added in stuff. But the start point is not of Russian origin as best that anyone can tell.

I really do not want to get our lines confused over this matter. You seem to have read a few things on the subject as well as being involved in both arts. Most people just go with the idea that Sambo is a purely Russian art. I think we can at least start on the common ground that the people most involved in the formation of Sambo had much stronger Kodokan ties than any ancient Russian martial art.