Ethical Question...

[Jas0n]

ok, I have only been doing EPAK for a little over a month. I enjoy it very much. Been going 3 times a week havent missed a class.
I am starting to get the techniques. I still struggle with Short Form 1... we havent done much with it. My form sux...I do not block well either. they havent spent much time on that yet.
I kinda jumped in with some higher up belts.
We have a young instructor (black Belt) seems to really know his form. He helps with the classes. anyway would it be a bad idea to ask him to get together some other time during the weekend and work together? My teacher does offer Private lessons but its $50 an HR!!!

 

[GouRonin]

It might be a bad idea seeing as how he is an instructor at the school. However, a good idea might be to get together with friends or other schoolmates and work out on stuff.

Also, if Cappi charges you $50.00 an hour make sure you tell him that you only want to train for 1/2 an hour and the other half you want to take his harley out for a spin!

Also...looking at your avatar you better train hard. All the other babies are gonna make fun of your hair.
:rofl:

 

[Jas0n]

Originally posted by GouRonin
It might be a bad idea seeing as how he is an instructor at the school. However, a good idea might be to get together with friends or other schoolmates and work out on stuff.

Also, if Cappi charges you $50.00 an hour make sure you tell him that you only want to train for 1/2 an hour and the other half you want to take his harley out for a spin!

Also...looking at your avatar you better train hard. All the other babies are gonna make fun of your hair.
:rofl:

Whats wrong with my hair!!!!
That is my Awesome Daughter! thats is why I have to train hard...I found out if I shoot the guys that come calling on her I get in a bit more trouble than if i beta them up. I figure i only have 10 yrs before they start comeing.

 

[Jas0n]

the reason I wanted to work with him...He seems to be the nicest instructor and takes time with me more than he does with the others...He just seems like a real nice guy.

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Jas0n
Whats wrong with my hair!!!!

Nothing. Pink is your colour! Honest!

Originally posted by Jas0n
That is my Awesome Daughter! thats is why I have to train hard...I found out if I shoot the guys that come calling on her I get in a bit more trouble than if i beta them up. I figure i only have 10 yrs before they start comeing.

The lament of every father with a daughter in the world. Totally understandable. My friend just had a baby girl and he is already booking time for me in 15 years to be there when his daughter's first date shows up and he wants me to chaparone with him.

Originally posted by Jas0n
the reason I wanted to work with him...He seems to be the nicest instructor and takes time with me more than he does with the others...He just seems like a real nice guy.

Good idea but as he teaches there already it might be awkward. Why not ask and see what he charges for private lessons through the school? Although you might not see it as so feelings can be hurt easily and it's always easier to avoid hurt feelings than it is to repair them. Just a hint from one who has been there.

 

[Jas0n]

Originally posted by GouRonin
Good idea but as he teaches there already it might be awkward. Why not ask and see what he charges for private lessons through the school? Although you might not see it as so feelings can be hurt easily and it's always easier to avoid hurt feelings than it is to repair them. Just a hint from one who has been there.

I understand maybe ill ask someone else...So whats arts did you take if not Kenpo?

 

[Blindside]

Hi Jason,

I say go for it, go ahead and ask that instructor for help, the only thing he can do is say no.

As an assistant instructor I love having motivated students that are looking for that little extra help. Also, as an instructor it is one of my duties to teach, not necessarily just on group nights, my job is to make sure those students succeed. For a motivated student I will make the time for a bit of extra training.

I think you will find that more than a half-hour of private instruction will be too much. Especially in the beginning when you are trying to improve your form and working on basics.

Good luck,

Lamont

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Jas0n
I understand maybe ill ask someone else...So whats arts did you take if not Kenpo?

Oh, I've been around...(No jokes you guys!)

My first love was boxing and it sort of developed into an incurrable love of learning many different styles of martial arts.

 

[tarabos]

one idea would be to find a training partner somewhere around your rank and ability and work with them outside of class. having a training partner is pretty much the only way to really excell in any martial art, especially a technique based one. this is sometimes easier said than done. people have other obligations and may not be as passionate about training as you are.

as for the young BB instructor. my advice would be to ask him a question or two after each class. pick his brain. have him help a little here and there. you'll be surprised how much you can get out of even ten or fifteen minutes of one on one casually.

and if he's a good instructor, he'll get caught up in what he's showing you and not even notic the time fly by...

they guy seems willing to help you out. i'm not the head instructor at my school but i usually have some students ask me a few questions on how something might work after a class. i always entertain the question and usually keep them a little longer than they were expecting me to. one time i had this poor guy standing there for almost an hour

 

[student]

That you ask your instructor permission to work with this black belt BEFORE you make any plans. You need to respect who is in charge of your instruction. Most instructors do not have a problem with their students getting help from other black belts since most of us have gifts in different areas (sparring, kata, technique, etc), but you need to make certain that you ask first as to not step on any toes and to respect your teacher. If he/she says no, he/she most likely has a very good reason that is in your best interest. I doubt that he/she wants anything but for you to progress and to become more proficient in the art.

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by student
That you ask your instructor permission to work with this black belt BEFORE you make any plans. You need to respect who is in charge of your instruction. Most instructors do not have a problem with their students getting help from other black belts since most of us have gifts in different areas (sparring, kata, technique, etc), but you need to make certain that you ask first as to not step on any toes and to respect your teacher. If he/she says no, he/she most likely has a very good reason that is in your best interest. I doubt that he/she wants anything but for you to progress and to become more proficient in the art.

That was what I was trying to say. Thank you for finding the tactful words for me.

 

[SingingTiger]

Originally posted by student
That you ask your instructor permission to work with this black belt BEFORE you make any plans. You need to respect who is in charge of your instruction.

I think that's a good idea. If the group class instructor doesn't have an opinion one way or the other, you might ask the owner of the school; whether or not you feel that's necessary really depends on the feeling you get from the place in general.

Also, consider starting out a little slower in asking for help outside of class times. Instead of suggesting getting together on a weekend, maybe start out by asking if he's got a few minutes after a group class for a specific question. You mentioned Short Form 1; instead of hoping to go through the entire form, maybe a good first step would be to ask if he could give you some suggestions on improving the first two blocks. If he's open to that, work on his suggestions for a week, then ask if he's got a few minutes the next time you see him to go through the next few motions. If you end up feeling comfortable working together outside of the class setting, those few minutes might turn into 10 or 15; who knows, he might be the one to suggest getting together on a weekend.

The instructors at my school are like Lamont: they love helping out motivated students. And sometimes a few minutes is all it takes. I was having trouble with an arm lock technique recently, so after a group class I asked the instructor if he could help me out for a few minutes. I don't think it took any more than ten minutes to find several things that I could improve to make the technique more effective. He was very happy to help (now all I have to do is fix the problems; that'll take more than ten minutes).

Rich

 

[Jas0n]

Well since the head guy charges for private lessons I figured he would say no if i asked permission to work with a BB...

i like the instructors...I just dont know..I feel like I am not getting enough...

 

[SingingTiger]

Originally posted by Jas0n
Well since the head guy charges for private lessons I figured he would say no if i asked permission to work with a BB...

Don't assume! The guy who owns my school charges for private lessons -- as do most "head guys" -- but he has no problem with students helping each other out, regardless of rank.

Asking "permission" is really more an act of respect, if you feel it's important in the setting you're in. I can't imagine any real objection. I mean, if you and this black belt were already friends, how could anyone object to him helping you out after coming over on a Sunday and watching a football game? You both share an interest, and one of you has more knowledge and is sharing it with the other.

i like the instructors...I just dont know..I feel like I am not getting enough...

You might consider private lessons then. I think the half-hour private instruction I get once a week is worth at least as much as all the group classes for the week. If cost is a factor, maybe you could get just one or two half-hour lessons per month.

Rich

 

[tarabos]

Originally posted by Jas0n
I just dont know..I feel like I am not getting enough...

in terms of what? the cirriculum? the speed in which you are advancing on your material? the amount of instruction? etc....

the only reason i ask is because sometimes students will feel they are not progressing fast enough and are being "held back" so to speak, when in reality they should not be questioning the instructor since he or she SHOULD know what's best for the student and will also know when they are ready to advance to a higher belt level.

not saying this is what you are trying to convey in any way now, just providing an example. if you truly believe that something is missing in your training/instruction that should be present, you should talk to Mr. Cappi and discuss a bit with him.

 

[Steve Howard]

JasOn,
in your intitial post, you said that you had only being doing EPAK for a little over a month and were going 3 time a week. My suggestion to you is to give yourself a little more time with the material. No one (at least no without any previous experience) becomes profiencient in only two months of practice. What you need isn't necessarily private instruction, but just more time with the material. Understand that you are learning a physical skill that requires a certain amount of repetition and experience to become ingrained. There is NO substitute for time spent on the techniques.

Other than that, many of the other posters already offered you some good advice. However, by no means should you ask this black belt to "get together" outside of class to work on things individually without first talking to the head instructor. Even if your one-on-one practice sessions with this instructor were informal, the fact that they would be taking place outside of your studio and behind your instructor's back would amount to this other black belt giving you private instruction. Since this is a service offered by your instructor (probably as part of his livelihood), it would be highly unethical on the part of you and the other black belt. $ 50.00 for a private lesson may seem steep, but it is well within the going rate, I assure you. And most instructors will allow you to take only one or two classes a month (as opposed to having to take a private lesson every week). At this point in your training, if you are already attending class three times a week, a single private lesson a month should be more than enough. Also, many studios have "open sessions" at some point during the week. These amount to unstructured class time where students can come in and ask questions or get additional help over specific problem areas. You might look into seeing if your studio offers such a classtime.

Good luck in your continued training.

Steve Howard
www.kenporaw.bravepages.com

 

[tarabos]

Originally posted by Steve Howard
JasOn,
in your intitial post, you said that you had only being doing EPAK for a little over a month and were going 3 time a week. My suggestion to you is to give yourself a little more time with the material.

YODA:

"Yes...yes...to Steve Howard you listen!"

 

[Kenpodoc]

1. It sounds like your doing well. You've picked a first rate instructor and you know you are not an expert yet.

2. $50 an hour is the going rate but it's probably too early for you to get your money's worth from Cappi.

3. Cappi is a Planas lineage. Mr Planas Form 1 tape and Mr Wedlakes orange yellow tape will allow you to review on your own and come to class prepared.

4. Make some friend's and play outside of class.

5. Ask Mr. Cappi's advice on what else you can do to prepare and mention the Black Belt you feel impressed with. This will show respect and open the lines of communication.

6. Most importantly remind yourself that Kenpo Karate is a lifetime study. I've been doing it for 6 years and I keep improving, but I learn something new nearly every day, I'm still having fun and I've found that the best things in life take time.

Good Luck,

Jeff

 

[SingingTiger]

Originally posted by Steve Howard
However, by no means should you ask this black belt to "get together" outside of class to work on things individually without first talking to the head instructor. Even if your one-on-one practice sessions with this instructor were informal, the fact that they would be taking place outside of your studio and behind your instructor's back would amount to this other black belt giving you private instruction. Since this is a service offered by your instructor (probably as part of his livelihood), it would be highly unethical on the part of you and the other black belt.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm having a hard time seeing how asking someone for help outside of class is unethical. At worst, I see it as lacking a small amount of respect, but unethical?

Let's say I go to a seminar on tax preparation. I learn a few things, and pass them on to a friend who's doing his own taxes. The people teaching the seminar make a living by disseminating this information for a fee, so by passing it on to my friend I've taken away a potential customer. Would you see that as "unethical"? I don't. I've paid my fee to learn the information, what I do with it afterwards is my business, whether it's pass it on to someone else for a fee, or pass it on to someone else for free, or keep it all to myself.

I can see how the training issue here is slightly different, given the fact that it's an ongoing relationship, and the fact is that the head instructor may think the pairing is a bad idea because he knows the strengths and weaknesses of the individuals involved. So asking him first would show a certain amount of respect for his knowledge, as well as a sort of ceremonial respect for his position. But I don't see anything unethical about getting together with other students, whether you ask for permission or not, simply because the head instructor makes his living by teaching.

I'd be open to hearing explanations about why it's unethical, though. Maybe I'm not seeing the big picture.

Rich

 

[Steve Howard]

Yes, Rich, you missed the point.

It is no where near the same as you paying for a tax seminar and then passing on what you learned to a friend. There is no personal relationship between you and the instructors at the tax seminar or your friend and the instructors at the seminar. Also, the information from the seminar is not an on-going course. Also, getting together outside of class with a black belt who regularly assists in classes is not the same as getting together with other students to practice (especially when you are only a yellow belt). You're trying to compare apples and oranges, and it doesn't work like that.

Imagine it this way: you spend twenty years developing your tax program and then spend another five years training instructors to help you at your seminars. Then, one of your assistants--WHILE STILL PARTICIPATING IN YOUR SEMINARS--begins to give his own seminars based on your information, without your knowledge. It is one thing if this happens with the knowledge and blessing of the first instructor. Or even if the second instructor strikes out on his own. But otherwise, what has happened is that the second instructor has set himself up in competition with his own instructor clandestinely and still continued to benefit from continued instruction. It is both LYING and STEALING.

The fact that JasOn considered doing this without his instructor's knowledge goes far beyond just being disrespectful. It is dishonest and, yes, therefore, unethical. I could go on, but if you haven't gotten it by now, then I probably am not going to be able to convince you. However, I hoped this has helped clarify some things. I wish you continued success in your own training.

Sincerely,
Steve Howard
www.kenporaw.bravepages.com