Environmental concerns and martial arts

[GouRonin]

As it started to snow here today I thought to myself, martial arts must be very region specific.

A Brazilian Jujitsu practitioner who fell to the ground here in winter to do his work might be in for a surpeise as he rolled in the snow. A TKD stylist who thought a lot of kicks might be the way to go might be in some trouble if he was on ice or snow. Knives won't have the same effect on someone wearing a heavy coat.

A lot of arts seem to be made for areas where the weather is different than here. I would think that a mobile art that keeps a base as often as possible would do best. Boxing, stick arts etc. More handwork than footwork.

Just thoughts. How would your art fare in a climate it's not intended for?

 

[chufeng]

This question makes NO Sense...

YOU adapt...period.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Jay Bell]

His question makes absolute sense. If you don't bring these types of conditions and thoughts to the table, the only thing you'll adapt to is the stitches from kissing the ice on the way down.

Take rolling for example. Rolling should be able to be done on any surface in any condition. Yet saying that and tucking it away in your head doesn't do much. If that's all that was done, the first instance of rolling uphill would land you in some serious trouble.

Ever work on ice before? Not much in the realms of "YOU adapt" happening there.

But back to the question...

I live in Arizona, so it's pretty hard (unless you drive up to Flagstaff area) to get around ice and whatnot. There isn't much as far as natural conditions (CACTUS?!) for us to be very worried about. However...falling to concrete that can fry eggs in the summer brings some things to mind.

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by chufeng
This question makes NO Sense...
YOU adapt...period.

Uh huh, like many traditional martial artists said they would adapt when faced with the groundwork of MMA.

It's all theoretical untily ou have to do it.

The question was "How would your art fare in an environment it's not intended for?"

Rather than cop out with the adapt answer, why not actually think about it and take an objective look?

 

[Matt Stone]

Chufeng's answer is correct... Those who demand specifics could be accused of lacking the insight themselves...

However...

For us Yiliquan people, at least those of us in the Pacific Northwest, we do realistic training everytime we get together.

"How so," you ask?

Firstly, since we are a small club, we train outdoors whenever we can. This means that we are consistently training on uneven ground - forms, sparring, throws and falls, etc., are all done on either grassy areas (affording slippery footing in the early morning when we first get together, and providing uneven traction and surface conditions as training continues) or concrete (which gives a new appreciation for the necessity of properly executed breakfalls).

It is turning into winter time up here in the Seattle/Tacoma area, which means more and more rain. This keeps us out of the grassy areas (not because we refuse to train there, just because we end up soaking wet within a few minutes; if we were going to pursue "hard core" training I am sure we would do it anyway, but so far it hasn't happened), but affords us additional variables on the concrete (we train on regular concrete as well as sealed surfaces).

Yili would fare pretty well overall, I think. Our focus on stance and footwork execution makes sure we maintain secure footholds on most surfaces (I think there comes a time when no matter what your training is, you are going to end up on your butt), and our training in other areas would do okay too.

I am hoping to organize some training in accordance with some guidelines given by the sheriff in Black Belt magazine regarding hostage/carjacking/airline situational response training. I see no need to modify what we do, just a need to place it in the correct environment to allow for orientation to what techniques are appropriate for those conditions...

How about you?

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[chufeng]

When I was in Iowa, I trained in the snow...90 minutes to 2 hours about 5 days a week ... my brother thought I was nuts ...I thought, "what an opportunity to develop stance and proper chamber."

When I was in Hawaii, I trained in the ocean surf...that will give you an appreciation of how solid your stances aren't... and again teaches how to chamber your kicks really high...
I also frequently trained on the side of a mountain...the ground was never even...
I frequently trained in low light (at night) and it provided me with tremendous insight into "feeling" an attack coming...my students thought I was nuts...

When I was in San Antonio, TX...I trained in hot, humid conditions, outdoors (100 degrees with 90% humidity...I increased my water intake and drilled for 2 to 3 hours a day...
During the fierce Texas thunderstorms, I would do stance drills in the wind and rain (and sometimes hail)...

When in Thailand for thirty days, I trained twice a day in 110 degree heat with 98% humidity...I increased my water intake...

Now I'm in the great Northwest and train outside exclusively...
Regardless of the temperature, or terrain, we ADAPT...

So, Gou, before telling me to seriously consider your question, maybe you should find out whether someone's actually done it...
My art works in many environments and terrains BECAUSE I trained in many different environments and terrains ANY martial artist can do the same. It's not the art, it's how you train in it...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[theneuhauser]

Environmental concerns and martial arts

and here i was thinking that you wanted to know the environmental impacts of dit da jow on the ecology!

 

[Jay Bell]

chufeng,

Your last post was what Gou was looking for. Your first was vague and rather punkish to be honest.

So, Gou, before telling me to seriously consider your question, maybe you should find out whether someone's actually done it...

Was it truly so difficult to explain that you had...therefore had the know-how to "adapt"?

Either be part of the topic or don't...

 

[chufeng]

Jay,

As someone posted in another thread, Less is More...so, I like to keep my posts short....if that makes me a "punk," I'll just have to live with that burden. But just for you, I'll expand a little...

If a practitioner wants to keep all training indoors on polished floors in nice neat white uniforms, fine...but that is about as far away from real as it gets...take your training into an environment that you are unfamiliar with and adapt it to the environment.

Do you know what happens when you throw someone uphill? Downhill?...One of them hurts more, can you guess which? I know, BECAUSE I took my training there...

Each and everyone of you can do the same thing...if you have a question about HOW your art would fare, test it against the circumstances you are wondering about.

To sit and wonder, to hypthesize, to have an opinion about what will and will not work without testing it is pretty much useless... JUST DO IT.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

Chufeng's answer is correct... Those who demand specifics could be accused of lacking the insight themselves...

Since people are taking pot shots at others, I think I will step in to the fun. (* Note: I expect them right back. *) As for the lack on insight, this is a written forum where people post to ask questions and to discuss issues. If you do not wish to discuss the issue then stay out, do try to kill the thread with quick trite replies. Just my opinion is all.

I hope to add to others insightfulness and then maybe we can all grow in knowledge.

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

However...

For us Yiliquan people, at least those of us in the Pacific Northwest, we do realistic training everytime we get together.

Realistic: Are you jumped / attacked by people you do not know? Are you attacked by people of other arts? I am not trying to be a smart %^& here yet, I think only the crazy people who step into jobs like bouncing and or being a street thug are realistic. Can we train for as many options as we can think of? Yes I do believe so, yet is it possible that through discussion here I might gain further insight to increase my training? For myself I believe it to be true, for i do not know everything.

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

"How so," you ask?

Firstly, since we are a small club, we train outdoors whenever we can. This means that we are consistently training on uneven ground - forms, sparring, throws and falls, etc., are all done on either grassy areas (affording slippery footing in the early morning when we first get together, and providing uneven traction and surface conditions as training continues) or concrete (which gives a new appreciation for the necessity of properly executed breakfalls).

This is Good Training! I have done this myself, train in the park, the back yard, even on basketball courts, and or parking lots. As for the breakfalls needing to executed, it is good to know how to execute properly on ice and or wet grass. Like I said this is good!

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

It is turning into winter time up here in the Seattle/Tacoma area, which means more and more rain. This keeps us out of the grassy areas (not because we refuse to train there, just because we end up soaking wet within a few minutes; if we were going to pursue "hard core" training I am sure we would do it anyway, but so far it hasn't happened), but affords us additional variables on the concrete (we train on regular concrete as well as sealed surfaces).

The rain also adds to the visibility issue, and having something wet dripping into your eyes. It is good training. In the club I train and teach in we come in at least once a winter make sure the heat is not on ad train in our street clothes including our winter jackets and gears. The first time this happened, I showed up with my leather coat and leather gloves and my scarf and ear muffs. People always laughed at the scarf and earmuffs. The leather jacket absorbed many a blow and the gloves allowed me protection on my hands, the ear muffs allowed for some minor protection for the first attack to the head and the ears. The scarf I used to attack and defend with. Not to bad for a FMA Stick Jock.

Note: That some of the others were in nice winter jackets that gave them so much padding that impact strikes were of little effect. You had to attack their balance and use joint locks for control not for damage. One person reminded me of the little brother in the movie "A Christmas Story" about the Red Rider BB Gun.

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

Yili would fare pretty well overall, I think. Our focus on stance and footwork execution makes sure we maintain secure footholds on most surfaces (I think there comes a time when no matter what your training is, you are going to end up on your butt), and our training in other areas would do okay too.

Good comments and good information and good work by you guys. Personally I try to avoid going to the ground. Not because I am afraid of going to the ground but because I am afraid of going to the ground. In real situation everytime I have gone to the ground I have put at least one person into the hospital. The cops, the lawyers the charges, the time, these things are things I want to avoid. Even if it is nothing more than I fell on your ankle and it broke. This did happen. I also got kicked in the ribs by his friend (* Ouch *)

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

I am hoping to organize some training in accordance with some guidelines given by the sheriff in Black Belt magazine regarding hostage/carjacking/airline situational response training. I see no need to modify what we do, just a need to place it in the correct environment to allow for orientation to what techniques are appropriate for those conditions...

Great thoughts and just think if you had not said these things people might not have thought about training for fighting in confined areas. I agree the appropriate techniques for the conditions at hand.

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

How about you?

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

ME? ME? I know nothing and understand less, yet I enjoy talking and discussing and arguing about lots of things.


Peace and train well

Rich
:asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

When I said:

Those who demand specifics could be accused of lacking the insight themselves...

I meant just what I said... could. Never said "were" or anything of the sort. Just trying to add in the idea that while some people post very short replies that may not be fully understood, not everyone that posts here posts because they want to start a discussion...

I know that I am wary about discussing too many things with people who possess questionable backgrounds. The last thing I want is some belt factory graduate to start going around saying "I got this technique/training method/etc. from Yiliquan, which I studied under so and so..." We are particular about who claims to have studied Yili, and even moreso regarding those who proclaim to teach it. No offense was intended, just a little caveat to even the playing field...

That having been said,

Realistic: Are you jumped / attacked by people you do not know? Are you attacked by people of other arts? I am not trying to be a smart %^& here yet, I think only the crazy people who step into jobs like bouncing and or being a street thug are realistic.

I think we are debating the semantics, not the issue. Realistic training, at least to us military types, means approximating the battlefield as closely as possible without sacrificing safety. So I think my definition of realistic matches your comment below:

Can we train for as many options as we can think of? Yes I do believe so...

And I think that is all we can do. I heard a quote that was attributed to Jigaro Kano that went something along the lines of "train hard, but do not injure your partner. In doing so, you jeapordize having a training partner tomorrow and losing a friend for life." We can only go so hard and so far in our training.

Yesterday, Chufeng (who is senior to me in Yili by many years) and I were training with some free form responses to miscellaneous attacks. He downed me a number of times with well timed shots to assorted soft and mushy spots that were simply unable to absorb the incoming technique. I landed a few strikes, and managed one good skin grab, but overall faired poorly (and I should certainly hope so, given he is supposed to be the one teaching me right now!). But on both our behalfs, I am pretty sure neither of us were going anywhere near full potential. To do so would have been potentially lethal. So our attacks and responses were "realistic," but we never crossed the line to where actual lasting injury could be sustained...

I think folks should not abandon their tradtional training in favor of the "flavor of the month" martial art, but should simply look at what would actually occur in the mall, in an alley, in a parking garage, in a clothing store, in a crowded bar, on the dancefloor, at a wedding reception, in a movie line, etc., and orient themselves on what particular things would influence what techniques they should be prepared to employ.

Traditional is good.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

Also, just for the sake of accurate reporting, there were numerous times when Chufeng and I found ourselves pinned up against a brick wall and made use of it as an additional weapon to allow certain techniques to be executed...

It is things like that that are hard to train for in a spartan dojo setting. You need to have a wall in order to train for its use.

Gambarimasu.

 

[Jay Bell]

I meant just what I said... could

It did come across badly. Since Gou asked the question there's been an air of elitist type responses. It's silly...answer the question or stay out of the topic. Not until a match was lit did the question actually get answered.

I don't recall anyone speaking of a flavor of the month martial art. It was a general question about how people handle various elements and surroundings.

When I say elitist...in case the wondering starts...I'm referring to rediculous statements such as this:

I know that I am wary about discussing too many things with people who possess questionable backgrounds. The last thing I want is some belt factory graduate to start going around saying "I got this technique/training method/etc. from Yiliquan, which I studied under so and so..." We are particular about who claims to have studied Yili, and even moreso regarding those who proclaim to teach it. No offense was intended, just a little caveat to even the playing field...

I feel you give yourself far too much credit. Questionable backgrounds? I hope that wasn't directed towards Gou or myself. Systema not having ranks at all probably wouldn't drop it into the "belt factory" catagory. My other background is koryu bujutsu.

Chufeng,

To sit and wonder, to hypthesize, to have an opinion about what will and will not work without testing it is pretty much useless... JUST DO IT.

You seem to assume that none of us ever have? Our training takes these realities and we train on them very often. You can't "JUST DO IT" on a discussion board...hence the discussion.

 

[Elfan]

Originally posted by GouRonin

A lot of arts seem to be made for areas where the weather is different than here. I would think that a mobile art that keeps a base as often as possible would do best. Boxing, stick arts etc. More handwork than footwork.

I agree that it makes sense for the base of ones art to be striking with the hands while staying on your feat. This is probably going to be most usefull in the most situations. However, don't stick arts require sticks to be useful and thus arn't all that great when you don't have sticks with you?

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Jay Bell

It did come across badly. Since Gou asked the question there's been an air of elitist type responses. It's silly...answer the question or stay out of the topic.

Well, since you apparently are the selfappointed authority of the thread, telling everyone what to do and all, I will clarify my point yet again... When I said could, that was exactly what I meant. If the shoe fits, wear it. If it doesn't, get over it. And whatever I post, whether applicable to a topic or not, I will post freely. The Mod Gods can delete my post, or suspend my posting privileges, but self-appointed thread cops can go hang... :angry:

I don't recall anyone speaking of a flavor of the month martial art. It was a general question about how people handle various elements and surroundings.

You're right, nobody did mention the flavor of the month martial arts. I chose to because the immigration of martial artists from one school to another simply because some new school publicizes some "incredible" new angle on "realistic" training touches on this particular topic. I wasn't aware the thread had been confined to the singular topic, and all potentially related issues were forbidden...

When I say elitist...in case the wondering starts...I'm referring to rediculous statements such as this:

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

I know that I am wary about discussing too many things with people who possess questionable backgrounds. The last thing I want is some belt factory graduate to start going around saying "I got this technique/training method/etc. from Yiliquan, which I studied under so and so..." We are particular about who claims to have studied Yili, and even moreso regarding those who proclaim to teach it. No offense was intended, just a little caveat to even the playing field...

I feel you give yourself far too much credit. Questionable backgrounds? I hope that wasn't directed towards Gou or myself. Systema not having ranks at all probably wouldn't drop it into the "belt factory" catagory. My other background is koryu bujutsu.

A little sensitive about your non-koryu training Mr. Bell? You seem to jump on this one and take it pretty personally... Let me clarify my position as simply as I can: I have had the (mis)fortunate opportunity to interact with a number of alleged MAists of questionable background over the years. They have attempted to get information, both personal and technical, from me in order to link themselves to my school and style to add to their already inflated and spurious resumes. I have learned from several friends who have been involved with MA web forums such as this longer than I have to be wary of getting too specific in training methods and technical information. I think that is wise, since at the very best the information would be misunderstood by anyone reading it.

I was not directing my comments about questionable backgrouds nor belt factory graduates toward you. If you felt that way, I apologize, but not with any degree of sincerity. You could have asked first before making insulting comments such as:

I feel you give yourself far too much credit.

Apparently you give yourself far too much credit to go around policing up others without requesting clarification from them... I suspect membership to the "elitist attitude club" isn't confined to those you accuse of such behavior...

In reviewing the posts made from the top of the thread down to the post of mine you quoted, I note that #1) my posts were very generalized (so it sounds like your problems with my comments are just that - yours), #2) were made in response to the comments/inquiries of others, and #3) had sufficient caveats to clarify their general and impersonal nature, e.g.:

No offense was intended, just a little caveat to even the playing field...

I would ask that you try not to be so self-righteous, Mr. Bell. I would ask that you do the following:

A. Read the 5th post from the top for my comments regarding how Yiliquan would fare in situations with varying climate and/or terrain.

B. Read the 11th and 12th posts from the top for my replies to Mr. Parsons, most especially the parts where I caveat my comments, intending them to simply call to mind certain issues, and where I agree with Mr. Parsons' ideas if not the words he chose to express them.

It has always been my understanding that Taijutsu as well as the Russian combat systems made use of environmental considerations as part of their training. Thanks for asking if anyone was familiar with your training, or better yet posting information yourself, rather than disrespectful and defensive comments...

As always,

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Elfan

I agree that it makes sense for the base of ones art to be striking with the hands while staying on your feat. This is probably going to be most usefull in the most situations. However, don't stick arts require sticks to be useful and thus arn't all that great when you don't have sticks with you?

Well, we do not need a stick, we have ice scrapers and snow shovels and oh yeah, stick arts have this tendacy to try to explain to the students that a similar technique can be applied empty handed or with a knife or with a pen, or anything else in your hands.

Yiliquan1,

I did not mean offense, I was just replying and trying to state that the pot shots were not the positiv approach to this thread. I did not communicate my intent properly. Hence this followup.
Thank you for taking no offense also.

Your comments on training is well put, if you hurt your partner today it is months before they can train again. This is not good for either person.

As for a black belt mill, I'll leave that for other discussions. Maybe you could start a new threat?

Train well

Rich

 

[Elfan]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons

Well, we do not need a stick, we have ice scrapers and snow shovels and oh yeah, stick arts have this tendacy to try to explain to the students that a similar technique can be applied empty handed or with a knife or with a pen, or anything else in your hands.

I almost always have a pen, car keys or cell phone with me that I woudn't like to be hit with. However, relying on them isn't something I would want to be the base of my art as I don't always have them nor are they always accesable.

I'm not familar with any "stick arts" so I would love so hear about how they adress issues like this.

 

[GouRonin]

Just an excercise in intellectual thought.

As the bard says, "Methinks he doth protest too much."

 

[Jay Bell]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

Well, since you apparently are the selfappointed authority of the thread, telling everyone what to do and all, I will clarify my point yet again... When I said could, that was exactly what I meant. If the shoe fits, wear it. If it doesn't, get over it. And whatever I post, whether applicable to a topic or not, I will post freely. The Mod Gods can delete my post, or suspend my posting privileges, but self-appointed thread cops can go hang... :angry:

Is 'self-appointed thread cop' the title you give to people that actually push for a discussion on a discussion board? Sorry for asking you to have to explain yourself so much...just making sure there is no further miscommunication.

A little sensitive about your non-koryu training Mr. Bell?

Not in the least. *All* of my martial arts experiance has been through traditional martial arts.

You seem to jump on this one and take it pretty personally... Let me clarify my position as simply as I can: I have had the (mis)fortunate opportunity to interact with a number of alleged MAists of questionable background over the years. They have attempted to get information, both personal and technical, from me in order to link themselves to my school and style to add to their already inflated and spurious resumes. I have learned from several friends who have been involved with MA web forums such as this longer than I have to be wary of getting too specific in training methods and technical information. I think that is wise, since at the very best the information would be misunderstood by anyone reading it.

I understand your standpoint. However...do you honestly feel that someone without physically working on the skills you discuss could do anything tangible with it? It's like makimono...very cryptic so that "those who don't know" still don't know...even with the written information.

I was not directing my comments about questionable backgrouds nor belt factory graduates toward you.

I'm stunned.

Apparently you give yourself far too much credit to go around policing up others without requesting clarification from them... I suspect membership to the "elitist attitude club" isn't confined to those you accuse of such behavior...

I did ask for clarification...maybe not in the cotton-swab manner you would have preferred, but it was there.

I would ask that you try not to be so self-righteous, Mr. Bell. I would ask that you do the following:

A. Read the 5th post from the top for my comments regarding how Yiliquan would fare in situations with varying climate and/or terrain.

B. Read the 11th and 12th posts from the top for my replies to Mr. Parsons, most especially the parts where I caveat my comments, intending them to simply call to mind certain issues, and where I agree with Mr. Parsons' ideas if not the words he chose to express them.

The original issue was concerning chufeng's original post. You agreed, then went into detail as to why you did so. I had no issues with that at all.

It has always been my understanding that Taijutsu as well as the Russian combat systems made use of environmental considerations as part of their training. Thanks for asking if anyone was familiar with your training, or better yet posting information yourself, rather than disrespectful and defensive comments...

I did post information about myself on this topic.

My initial issue with this whole fiasco is pretty simple. In a discussion topic, people bring their various ideas and experiances to the table and share them. If you go through this thread and remove chufeng's original post...nothing would change. It added absolutely nothing to the thread but an air of arrogance. If you'd like to continue this, you can contact me via PM or email.

 

[chufeng]

Mr. Bell,

In your eyes, I am an arrogant punk...you've made that point quite clear...Thank you for bringing such a positive tone to this "discussion."

I don't think I called anyone any names on this thread (or in any other thread that I post in). I don't see HOW calling names or inferring that someone is arrogant (or fill in any adjective) adds anything to a "discussion."

It seems to me that if someone wants to find out HOW his art works on ice, or in the snow, then that individual should find some ice or snow and train in it...talking about it won't get it done. THAT was my point...and I think I have wasted many words trying to make my point...I was not trying to be arrogant, funny, condescending, or punkish...(surprise)...so erase all the stuff I've said since my original post and insert this:

"Adapt."

:asian:
chufeng