Enlightenment and Awareness confusion?

[Matt Stone]

I always related "Awareness" to the intense senses of all around you including that within you, and "Enlightenment" to the understanding of all around you including that within you, all that has been, all that is to be.

And in defining them, labeling them, they are limited...

Enlightenment is so much less than what people expect. Everyday awareness is so much more... Which is the true "enlightenment?"

Always remember, "enlightenment isn't what you think..."

:asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

Yet I also enjoy hearing and watching the bee dance from flower to flower, as the bird sings, and ..., .

The best part of your post was the "..."

Very Zen.

.

:asian:

 

[Rich Parsons]

The best part of your post was the "..."

Very Zen.

.

:asian:

Thank you Sir :lol:

I enjoyed your posts greatly.

:asian:

 

[Corporal Hicks]

And in defining them, labeling them, they are limited...

Enlightenment is so much less than what people expect. Everyday awareness is so much more... Which is the true "enlightenment?"

Always remember, "enlightenment isn't what you think..."

:asian:

Point actually hit home somewhere that time! That was strange.
Thanks for the post!

 

[Matt Stone]

Point actually hit home somewhere that time! That was strange.
Thanks for the post!

That's how Zen works... Better yet, that's how understanding works.

Sometimes, most times, when you think you've "got it," you are still terribly far off the mark. When you know, you'll know...

Another Zen maxim -

"He who knows, does not speak. He who speaks, does not know."

Enjoy.

:asian:

 

[Corporal Hicks]

Well there is a new problem that has arisen from my meditation or attempts at is that is. I cant seem to silence my mind, my mind just talks in the back of my head, and even though I try and watch it, its as though it comes from the back door of me watching, if you get what I'm trying to say.

I.e. I'm watching the thoughts as they come by, but then I get something behind that telling that I'm watching the thoughts, and that just gets me confused. Can you understand that?

What can I do? Just recognise its there, dont get wound up about it and continue?

Though even If I try to do that, its still there, its telling me that ignoring it isnt going to help and neither will accepting.
What should I do?

Regards

 

[Rich Parsons]

Well there is a new problem that has arisen from my meditation or attempts at is that is. I cant seem to silence my mind, my mind just talks in the back of my head, and even though I try and watch it, its as though it comes from the back door of me watching, if you get what I'm trying to say.

First, what works for me may not and most likely will not work for you, but if it helps then good, but remember you should not walk my own path, you should walk your own, so adjust as you feel best.

Also note that if it were easy, you would not appreciate the end result.

When I try to do the empty mind approach, I try to concentrate on my heart and breathing, I try to slow it down and control its rate, and breath slowly, and control the amount of paue inbetween the inhale hold, exhale, hold, ..., .

I.e. I'm watching the thoughts as they come by, but then I get something behind that telling that I'm watching the thoughts, and that just gets me confused. Can you understand that?

Yes, are you conscious of the fact that your unconcious is conscious of you. Read some Neitzsche, and other existentialists.

What can I do? Just recognise its there, dont get wound up about it and continue?

Yes. Recognise it. Yes acknowledge it, and continue.

Now you can try to think about certain things at your control, that will help you relax, such as a moving pattern with your inner "minds' eye", or what you saw through the day. Try to recall the whole day from start to beginning, and see what you can and cannot remember. After a while of guiding your mind, you might be able to guide it into the quiet zone you are looking for.

What are you looking to get out of Meditation?

Though even If I try to do that, its still there, its telling me that ignoring it isnt going to help and neither will accepting.
What should I do?

Regards

Move on. Be aware of it, and also do not let it be the only thing you see. Sometimes by trying to see nothing, you see everything, so why not try to see everything, and maybe you might find nothing.

I have found that if I reflect upon the issue bothering me, then once I have thought and or addressed them they no longer float around in my head, and I can move on.

It may not help, but it may.

 

[heretic888]

Just to chime in here....

According to the great nondual traditions like Zen, Vedanta Hinduism, or Neoplatonism, Enlightenment isn't something you "get" or "find" or "locate" or "achieve". This would be akin to looking down and "finding" or "discovering" your feet, something that's been there the entire time, you've just been too dense to notice.

You're already Enlightened, its just that simple.

 

[heretic888]

My post didn't update this thread, either. Weird.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Well there is a new problem that has arisen from my meditation or attempts at is that is. I cant seem to silence my mind, my mind just talks in the back of my head, and even though I try and watch it, its as though it comes from the back door of me watching, if you get what I'm trying to say.

I.e. I'm watching the thoughts as they come by, but then I get something behind that telling that I'm watching the thoughts, and that just gets me confused. Can you understand that?

What can I do? Just recognise its there, dont get wound up about it and continue?

Though even If I try to do that, its still there, its telling me that ignoring it isnt going to help and neither will accepting.
What should I do?

Regards

you talk about doing meditation......could you explain what it is you do when you meditate?

there are certain methods that one can use to help when learning how to meditate properly. its much more than just sitting there quietly.

 

[Corporal Hicks]

you talk about doing meditation......could you explain what it is you do when you meditate?

there are certain methods that one can use to help when learning how to meditate properly. its much more than just sitting there quietly.

Well to write quickly for the sake of arguement, I usually do it spontaneously and not after sport or when I'm troubled so I usually grab a firm cushion and place it under my butt so my hips are inline then I make reference to my posture using some notes I got off of the internet and here.
Then for about a minute or two I just look around me, calm down a bit, take in the light, the surroundings etc. Telling myself to expect nothing etc etc]
Then I close my eyes and start breathing, counting my breaths from one up to ten trying to focus, if I get distracted I just accept that I have and start from one again. Generally this takes me fifteen minutes just to get to relaxed state where there are gaps of 'no chatter' but after that I get really restless or my legs go numb and I eventually move.
Not only that sometimes It doesnt seem like I can breathe properly, I've tried changing my posture to but sometimes it feels like its forced from the stomach or tanden area and other times like its from my chest.
Any ideas?

Regards

 

[tradrockrat]

This thread is cracking me up. I'm really enjoying it. My teacher would have answered the origional question like this--


"Go meditate on your question... Come back when you find the answer."

IMHO meditation is a tool to silence your mind long enough for it to do its job. Other tools I use are rock climbing, sailing, and motorcycling.

just my .02

 

[Corporal Hicks]

This thread is cracking me up. I'm really enjoying it. My teacher would have answered the origional question like this--


"Go meditate on your question... Come back when you find the answer."

IMHO meditation is a tool to silence your mind long enough for it to do its job. Other tools I use are rock climbing, sailing, and motorcycling.

just my .02

To do what job exactly?

I would meditate on the question, If I knew when to start meditating on it?
See what I mean?
Regards

 

[Corporal Hicks]

What are you looking to get out of Meditation?

.

To understand myself better and to be more 'connected' to the world around me and its interaction.
In essence in aid of feeling more 'alive'!

When are zen koans meant to be used? Could you use them all the time? As you walking to work say? Or are they most effective during meditation?

Thanks for the posts everybody!

Regards

 

[rutherford]

To do what job exactly?

I would meditate on the question, If I knew when to start meditating on it?
See what I mean?
Regards

Do you remember what I said about confusion?

It is my belief that you already know the answer to any question you might desire to meditate upon.

You just have to trust yourself and let go enough to hear the answer.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

To understand myself better and to be more 'connected' to the world around me and its interaction.
In essence in aid of feeling more 'alive'!

When are zen koans meant to be used? Could you use them all the time? As you walking to work say? Or are they most effective during meditation?

Thanks for the posts everybody!

Regards

it sounds to me like you're looking for instant enlightenment. it doesnt happen that way.
you've just started down a road that some people stay on until the day they die and feel they only catch a glimpse.....if that.
before you can even connect to the world in the way which you speak, you have to begin by connecting to yourself. you have too many ideas and aspirations......lose em.
you're already becoming attached to the ideal which is defeating your entire purpose.
you're not ready to start contemplating koans if you cant sit and count out 10 breaths.
baby steps.......dont think beyond the now. when you meditate.....all there is is the moment. dont think consciously about your breathing, dont force yourself to breathe........just breathe and pay attention to the nuances of it. the rising of the abdomen, the beginning of inhalation, the air moving into your lungs, the brief pause as the abdomen reaches the end of inhalation and exhalation starts. visualize the air moving into your body as cool blue healing light.....cycling through your head, down your spine and settling in your tan tien.......from there it turns red with all of your negative thoughts and illness. it rises up the front of your body and is exhaled through your mouth.
thats one breath.
forget about everything else until you can do that...........took me about 5 years before i felt successful with my breathing.

 

[Corporal Hicks]

it sounds to me like you're looking for instant enlightenment. it doesnt happen that way.
you've just started down a road that some people stay on until the day they die and feel they only catch a glimpse.....if that.
before you can even connect to the world in the way which you speak, you have to begin by connecting to yourself. you have too many ideas and aspirations......lose em.
you're already becoming attached to the ideal which is defeating your entire purpose.
you're not ready to start contemplating koans if you cant sit and count out 10 breaths.
baby steps.......dont think beyond the now. when you meditate.....all there is is the moment. dont think consciously about your breathing, dont force yourself to breathe........just breathe and pay attention to the nuances of it. the rising of the abdomen, the beginning of inhalation, the air moving into your lungs, the brief pause as the abdomen reaches the end of inhalation and exhalation starts. visualize the air moving into your body as cool blue healing light.....cycling through your head, down your spine and settling in your tan tien.......from there it turns red with all of your negative thoughts and illness. it rises up the front of your body and is exhaled through your mouth.
thats one breath.
forget about everything else until you can do that...........took me about 5 years before i felt successful with my breathing.

Ok, thanks for your post, point taken!
Can I ask one thing though? Is it worth it? To go through all of that? And not even know that there will be something at the end?
Or should I stick to the power of now? as that does give the feeling of connectness and a feeling of alive? a satori experience?
Regards

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Ok, thanks for your post, point taken!
Can I ask one thing though? Is it worth it? To go through all of that? And not even know that there will be something at the end?
Or should I stick to the power of now? as that does give the feeling of connectness and a feeling of alive? a satori experience?
Regards

that choice is entirely upto you. how many people have faith in god and jesus?
they go through their lives having this faith in the hopes that at the end there is something wonderful and miraculous.
is there something wonderful and miraculous? only they know......and we are simply enjoying the ride until its our turn.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Just to chime in here....

According to the great nondual traditions like Zen, Vedanta Hinduism, or Neoplatonism, Enlightenment isn't something you "get" or "find" or "locate" or "achieve". This would be akin to looking down and "finding" or "discovering" your feet, something that's been there the entire time, you've just been too dense to notice.

You're already Enlightened, its just that simple.

Some people just need help and guiding to see that they have feet

 

[heretic888]

Recently as some of you may now I have been studying Buddhism (Zen). Now I was under the impression that enlightenment is that same goal as expressed in the Power of Now, the feeling of intense awareness of the world around you? Or am I incorrect?

I must qualify myself by saying that I have no personal experience or knowledge of the Power of Now program, so I cannot comment on it specifically.

That being said, it has been my experience that much of the "modern" approaches to "self-realization" or "enlightenment" currently on the market actually have the opposite goal in mind. The purpose of radical Enlightenment (regardless of how we phrase it metaphysically) is to transcend the ego, or separate-self sense, altogether in a nondual unitive "state".

By contrast, much of the "spiritual programs" in the market are actually based upon strengthening the ego, raising self-esteem, making you feel good about "yourself" (I mean, you're God, y'know?), and are more focused on getting the ego to accept a new "paradigm" than dissolving and transforming the ego altogether.

This is where much of "New Age" or "postmodern" spiritual movements differ from the approaches offered in Zen, Vedanta, contemplative Christianity (re; St. John of the Cross), Kabbalah, or Sufism.

Just my thoughts. :asian: