Encouraging Women to Train

[hoshin1600]

We don't seem to be doing anything that discourages female students after they've started, I just can't seem to get them to walk in the door in the first place

as i said who answers the phone and does the phone sales call? if your school meets what i mentioned as being a place women want to go but your still not getting women to join, then who ever does your sales ....
wise man once said...if your sales suck its because your a sucky sales person. let someone else do the job or figure it out quick.

 

[Tez3]

Martial arts classes can be a hard thing to walk into. You have a whole lot of people, dressed the same, who all know each other and seem to all be experts, when you walk in they all look at you as if to say 'yeah what?' Now, a good class will be friendly and welcome a new person especially a beginner but often those who have trained for a while forget what it's like to be new and know nothing, they want to get on with the class and can't really be bothered with showing someone the ropes.
A few years ago, I fancied doing some training with a JKD group that trained in the local sports centre, I phoned the instructor, he said great, you're welcome, just come along. I turned up, didn't wear a belt, just white t shirt and black gi bottoms ( I'd asked the instructor if that was acceptable), the men of the class, no women in it, just looked at me, they weren't hostile, just uncomfortable. One of them asked if I was lost thinking I was supposed to be in the gym part or a gym class. If I hadn't been as confident as I am I would have walked out, it was like a wall of blankness. Not unwelcome but not welcome either. When I said I'd come to train, they were at great pains to point out they trained 'hard' and I might get hurt.

Anyway, quick warm up and we got started, pad work to start with, everyone in a circle with gloves on, one in the middle with pads, going around the circle so each could punch the pads. Now without knowing what I could do each one punched those pads as hard as they could when I was holding them. They didn't ask if I was a beginner, experienced or even knew hold to hold the pads. If I'd been a beginner would I have had the confidence to ask any of them or even the instructor what to do, in my experience beginners don't tend to ask on their first class, they are usually quite shy and wait to be asked or told anything. The punching wasn't as much hostile as done in the spirit of discouragement only I guess to their disappointment I'm not fazed, I hold pads for pro fighters so wasn't bothers and when it was my turn to punch, used good techniques to punch the pads harder than they could. No one was wearing belts, I found out that was because no one had graded yet...the class was only months old. I don't know to this day whether the instructor was having a laugh or not, I went for a few more weeks, got to know the guys, they were earnest in their training but the instructor left and the class closed down.

This wasn't a specific male attitude, it was the attitude you get when people have been in a club/class/group for a while ( but not long enough to have the 'show off' bit wear off) and want to show they know more than the 'newbie'. I've seen in in fitness classes as well from men and women, though the one class I went to was circuit training, one bit was a long punch bag on the floor which you had to punch, knee etc, MMA style. Of course that was easy and I got stuck in like an MMA coach lol. I didn't realise it had gone quiet and they were all watching me, I stood up grinned and shrugged then moved on to a kick bag.

Women aren't so bothered about changing rooms, a clean toilet is nice preferably not shared with men who pee on the floor but as long as it's clean it's fine. The starting and finishing time of the class is important, even today most childcare is done by the mothers so it has to fit in with children's bedtimes and family meals, a lot of women do shift work because it fits in with their others halves work schedule. A lot of women also do part time work in the evenings. Also it depends on how much the classes coast, it's hard to justify spending money that could be used on children or housekeeping.
Female instructors are good because they see things from a female point of view which with the best will in the world men don't especially when it comes to self defence. Also white Gi bottoms are a pain in the ****, women don't like wearing white, go for black.

If the posters seem to be angled more to men than women it will put women off, the place you train at may also be overly geared towards men. We have leisure centres here, which hold gyms class, spinning, yoga, 'bums, tums and legs' classes etc so there are a lot of women attending those classes as well as using the gym itself, so posters there work well. It's even better if they can see a class going on, hold an open evening, advertise in in local newspapers. Do demos at local events, like school fetes ( I don't know if you have them but you know the sort of thing), give out flyers to mothers at school gates, put posters up on libraries. Have an open mat where you invite martial artists to come and roll on the mats, often they are done for charity here, held in local school/college/uni etc gyms, raises money for a local charity, gets you publicity ( inform your local press how much you made and who for, sometimes local radio/television will send someone along if you let them know beforehand) and non martial artists can see you having fun, being friendly and likely there will be a few women there. Often people bring non martial arts friends to come and watch which they don't get to on normal classes, so that will get your classes talked about and you never know a new student or two.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Women may feel uncomfortable at first because men don't instantly know how to train with women. With other men we just assume we can be rough. But with women some other things come into play. When I train with women, I have to be mind full that the way I grapple with a man may make a woman feel like she is being groped. For men it's an "accidental breast touch" when doing certain techniques on a woman and but on a man it's just grabbing the rib cage and pushing upward.

It's things like this that I'm glad I have women that can train with each other. Eventually the women become comfortable enough to recognize that the man is focused on the technique and not trying to grope her.

The newer female students feel less comfortable with me grabbing their wrist to position guards where they should be. Even though I do this with everyone, that level of comfort takes a while for them to reach. Anyway most men are cautious when training with woman so no to offend her.

 

[Tez3]

Please do be careful about generalising about 'women', I know an awful lot of women who are as tough as old boots, don't care if you accidently touch their boobs (though woe betide you if it's not accidental) don't feel strange grappling with men and really are not delicate little daisies. These women aren't martial artists either.
I do however feel uncomfortable with all the men on here discussing how women should be treated, how they think women feel and what should be done to make us poor lickle women want to do martial arts.

Oh and there are men in martial arts who do grope women, who like to make things difficult for women and who put techniques on harder on a female than they would on a man. They justify it by pretending it helps a woman if she's attacked, or they say it toughens a woman up. They also do it because they don't want women in their gang.

Perhaps instead of looking to get more women into martial arts, perhaps just train well, be open and if women want to join they will.

 

[CB Jones]

Naked Tuesday's was probably just a bad marketing ploy.

 

[Tez3]

Naked Tuesday's was probably just a bad marketing ploy.

In Europe we women sunbathe topless as well as nude on public beaches why would we worry about a 'naked day'?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Women may feel uncomfortable at first because men don't instantly know how to train with women. With other men we just assume we can be rough. But with women some other things come into play. When I train with women, I have to be mind full that the way I grapple with a man may make a woman feel like she is being groped. For men it's an "accidental breast touch" when doing certain techniques on a woman and but on a man it's just grabbing the rib cage and pushing upward.

It's things like this that I'm glad I have women that can train with each other. Eventually the women become comfortable enough to recognize that the man is focused on the technique and not trying to grope her.

The newer female students feel less comfortable with me grabbing their wrist to position guards where they should be. Even though I do this with everyone, that level of comfort takes a while for them to reach. Anyway most men are cautious when training with woman so no to offend her.

Not sure why this is a dislike but oh well

 

[JowGaWolf]

Oh and there are men in martial arts who do grope women, who like to make things difficult for women and who put techniques on harder on a female than they would on a man. They justify it by pretending it helps a woman if she's attacked, or they say it toughens a woman up.

This problem is the difficulty that many other men have when training with women. They don't want to confused with guys like this.

 

[Tez3]

This problem is the difficulty that many other men have when training with women. They don't want to confused with guys like this.

Yes and they come across as being patronising. I have been training martial arts for over forty years, I have been in the military then worked in a uniformed job as a civilian. Men and women can work and train perfectly well together when they see each other as training partners and colleagues. When you start with the gender thing is gets complicated. Look beyond the gender of the students, just see students and fellow martial artists, let them decide their boundaries, don't you do it. Too many people decide for other people what is appropriate and what is not, yes a woman has breasts, but get over it. Tell her what the techniques involves and then get on with it, do you worry about touching a man's genitals or is it accepted that touching happens in grappling? If a woman is training grappling she's not stupid she knows that she will be touched. If it's not groping there's no problems, however what if she gropes a man? What if a man gropes another man? So many ifs, best thing is just train, adult women are just that, adults, allow them the same training as the men.

 

[Tez3]

Not sure why this is a dislike but oh well

It's a dislike because you are talking down to women, do you think women who choose to do grappling are stupid? Do you think that they won't know they can and will be touched? do you think they actually care as long as it's done in grappling? When I'm grappling I think like a grappler, I think about my techniques, what I'm doing, what my opponent is doing, where arms and legs are etc I do not think oh I wonder if he's going to touch my boobs or am I going to touch his genitals. The parts of the body, if I think about it, I dislike are dirty feet and long toenails, that I don't like.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yes and they come across as being patronising. I have been training martial arts for over forty years, I have been in the military then worked in a uniformed job as a civilian. Men and women can work and train perfectly well together when they see each other as training partners and colleagues. When you start with the gender thing is gets complicated. Look beyond the gender of the students, just see students and fellow martial artists, let them decide their boundaries, don't you do it. Too many people decide for other people what is appropriate and what is not, yes a woman has breasts, but get over it. Tell her what the techniques involves and then get on with it, do you worry about touching a man's genitals or is it accepted that touching happens in grappling? If a woman is training grappling she's not stupid she knows that she will be touched. If it's not groping there's no problems, however what if she gropes a man? What if a man gropes another man? So many ifs, best thing is just train, adult women are just that, adults, allow them the same training as the men.

Don't take it as patronizing because that wasn't my intention. I don't know how things are there, but in the U.S. it's not unusual for a man to be accused of doing something that he didn't do. This isn't an assumption, this is something that my friends, my brother, and myself have experienced. There are people in jail for this very same reason that someone accused them of doing something they didn't. So when a guy tells you this, don't immediately brush it off as something that's patronizing.

When I start with the gender, it's because it matters. I know you don't believe this but here in the U.S. it matters, not only gender but age. I will look beyond gender when the student shows me they are a martial artist and they are comfortable with what martial artist deal with. Until then I'm going to do what I can not to make them feel uncomfortable. I do let the women decide their boundaries. I don't go around testing boundaries. You can tell boundaries that people set by the look in their eyes, the expressions that they make and by their body language. It's really difficult to fake looking uncomfortable.
"Too many people decide for other people what is appropriate and what is not, yes a woman has breasts, but get over it." Guys can't take that position so lightly. Not every woman has that perception.

"if a woman is training grappling she's not stupid she knows that she will be touched. If it's not groping there's no problems, however what if she gropes a man?" I train striking and grappling. This means grabbing for the guard and sometimes missing.. With a guy the open hand hits hits his chest, with a woman the open hand hits the breasts.

Actually yeah I worry about touching a man's genitals, like I said we do striking so while we target that area we don't actually try to hit it. Accidents happen but that doesn't make me worry about it less.

Contrary to belief, not all men are cool with groping. I had a new female student that was doing a trial class and she used to hang on me and hug me a lot. It was not only uncomfortable for me, but I had no idea how my wife would react and I had no idea how her husband (who was sitting out in the car). would react. She was only 3 days into the trail when this started happening. She didn't hug any of the other males, only me.. So yeah. I didn't like it. I've been sexually assaulted by women before and each time I didn't like it. If I thought another man was groping me, then I wouldn't like that either and I sure as heck wouldn't accept it.

Adult women aren't always adults just like adult men aren't always adults.

It's a dislike because you are talking down to women, do you think women who choose to do grappling are stupid?

You are making assumptions that grappling only happens in a martial arts class where people are rolling on the ground. When I grapple I think like a striker and the only reason to grab is to break or put the person in a position where I can strike.

If I had taught BJJ then it would be a different issue, but I teach Jow Ga so it matters. The amount of body contact that we get in Jow Ga is small compared to a grappling system like BJJ,Judo.

 

[Tez3]

You are making assumptions that grappling only happens in a martial arts class where people are rolling on the ground. When I grapple I think like a striker and the only reason to grab is to break or put the person in a position where I can strike.

No I'm not because I do Wado Ryu karate and MMA which both involve 'stand up' grappling.

I'm aware from American friends that it's very different in the US when it comes to issues involving gender, in fact at the moment everyone in the world know there's a difference, it's been plastered all over the news. Not our monkey, not our circus so I'll not comment about prudery and religion etc.

You are generalising again though, women who go in for grappling not women in general understand the ramifications of touching in grappling As I said women here sunbathe topless and nakedness (male and female full frontal) is common on our television, I assume you haven't seen the television series 'Versailles' for instance.

You also misunderstood and thought I was calling you patronising, I wasn't I mean men who chunter on too much about being careful of women in martial arts training are patronising.

Oh and for the record I don't worry in the least about touching any part of any one but I'm guessing being in the military probably makes you quite blasé about people's bits. No place for prudery, but then on the whole Europe is not a prudish place that includes the UK. Men and women do sometimes get accused of doing something they didn't but this doesn't happen in a public place while others are around which is the situation in a martial arts class. I do believe that the US and the UK/Europe has very different viewpoints, I think they diverged during World War two, when male and female roles were merged, and attitudes towards sex changed because you couldn't be prudish if you didn't know how long it was before you were killed. You took life as you could get it and that included sex. Where that leaves us is people who are hugely open about bodies and bodily functions as well as gender fluidity. In martial arts training this makes for a much better equality when training. Europe and the Uk though don't like as much violence as in the US but that's again due to world War 1 and 2. ( 100th anniversary of the battle of Passchendaele at the moment)

I'm not sure people should be 'comfortable' in martial arts, it's about challenging ourselves and overcoming fears. It's not Zumba.

 

[JowGaWolf]

No I'm not because I do Wado Ryu karate and MMA which both involve 'stand up' grappling.

I'm aware from American friends that it's very different in the US when it comes to issues involving gender, in fact at the moment everyone in the world know there's a difference, it's been plastered all over the news. Not our monkey, not our circus so I'll not comment about prudery and religion etc.

You are generalising again though, women who go in for grappling not women in general understand the ramifications of touching in grappling As I said women here sunbathe topless and nakedness (male and female full frontal) is common on our television, I assume you haven't seen the television series 'Versailles' for instance.

You also misunderstood and thought I was calling you patronising, I wasn't I mean men who chunter on too much about being careful of women in martial arts training are patronising.

Oh and for the record I don't worry in the least about touching any part of any one but I'm guessing being in the military probably makes you quite blasé about people's bits. No place for prudery, but then on the whole Europe is not a prudish place that includes the UK. Men and women do sometimes get accused of doing something they didn't but this doesn't happen in a public place while others are around which is the situation in a martial arts class. I do believe that the US and the UK/Europe has very different viewpoints, I think they diverged during World War two, when male and female roles were merged, and attitudes towards sex changed because you couldn't be prudish if you didn't know how long it was before you were killed. You took life as you could get it and that included sex. Where that leaves us is people who are hugely open about bodies and bodily functions as well as gender fluidity. In martial arts training this makes for a much better equality when training. Europe and the Uk though don't like as much violence as in the US but that's again due to world War 1 and 2. ( 100th anniversary of the battle of Passchendaele at the moment)

I'm not sure people should be 'comfortable' in martial arts, it's about challenging ourselves and overcoming fears. It's not Zumba.

If a person doesn't feel comfortable with just being their and they don't feel comfortable with the people training and fellow students then their won't be doing much training. It's one thing to feel uncomfortable because the training is difficult and it's something else to feel uncomfortable because a person feels like they are being taken advantage of.

My personal view is that more women here in the US should have your level of confidence, but it's not the case for where I live.

Women have always been strong within certain areas and it seems like now they are finding their footing in other areas but they still have a long way to go in terms of Martial Arts. This is even more so for black women in martial arts. It's all strange to me considering women make up a large part of fitness kick boxing classes. To me it doesn't seem like a big leap but for whatever reason in the U.S. many women seem to be unsure about Martial arts. My wife and another female student joined through our fitness class. We basically told them that kung fu is great exercises and that they were doing the same exercises that they were doing in the fitness class. My wife didn't take kung fu seriously until I told her that women who do martial arts are hot. Just my personal opinion. I find active women attractive because I can do a wide range of thing like hiking, camping, sports and other things with her. That carried her for a few months until she enjoyed kung fu for her own reasons. Through kung fu and sparring she no longer feels "fragile." She used to get posts on facebook from other women saying that she looked like a man because of her muscles. Pretty much what I hear about some UFC and other MMA women. I'm hoping today's 20 year old women aren't as intimidated by Martial Arts.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If a person doesn't feel comfortable with just being their and they don't feel comfortable with the people training and fellow students then their won't be doing much training. It's one thing to feel uncomfortable because the training is difficult and it's something else to feel uncomfortable because a person feels like they are being taken advantage of.

My personal view is that more women here in the US should have your level of confidence, but it's not the case for where I live.

Women have always been strong within certain areas and it seems like now they are finding their footing in other areas but they still have a long way to go in terms of Martial Arts. This is even more so for black women in martial arts. It's all strange to me considering women make up a large part of fitness kick boxing classes. To me it doesn't seem like a big leap but for whatever reason in the U.S. many women seem to be unsure about Martial arts. My wife and another female student joined through our fitness class. We basically told them that kung fu is great exercises and that they were doing the same exercises that they were doing in the fitness class. My wife didn't take kung fu seriously until I told her that women who do martial arts are hot. Just my personal opinion. I find active women attractive because I can do a wide range of thing like hiking, camping, sports and other things with her. That carried her for a few months until she enjoyed kung fu for her own reasons. Through kung fu and sparring she no longer feels "fragile." She used to get posts on facebook from other women saying that she looked like a man because of her muscles. Pretty much what I hear about some UFC and other MMA women. I'm hoping today's 20 year old women aren't as intimidated by Martial Arts.

Didn't realize I typed so much.

 

[drop bear]

Naked Tuesday's was probably just a bad marketing ploy.

I dont know. In my club sometimes I think I am the fat kid hanging out with a boy band

 

[JowGaWolf]

I dont know. In my club sometimes I think I am the fat kid hanging out with a boy band

Lol. I often joke about increasing members by having good looking men and women in the school. I just need them to train with the school for 6 months so our membership will get a big boost.

 

[Jenna]

Naked Tuesday's was probably just a bad marketing ploy.

Videos please and thank you! .. like only because I am marketing guru and want to assess your uh.. marketing

 

[Tez3]

My personal view is that more women here in the US should have your level of confidence, but it's not the case for where I live.

The answer to that is political and religious. I've also seen from American friends FB etc that there is a great deal of hating going on as regards gender, racism and sexism. When old white men are in power 'The Handmaid's Tale' may be become a reality if they aren't ousted as soon as possible for everyone's including the world's sake.

 

[jobo]

This problem is the difficulty that many other men have when training with women. They don't want to confused with guys like this.

yes, I know what you mean, we have a good number of females at our,school and you have to alter your training accordingly to which gender you are paired with, . No big heavy punching if they,are female,constantly careful of a boob touch. We have one lady is is remarkably strong, not strong for a,lady, just strong, she punches and kicks like a mule, as the chest cant be a target its hard to know what to actually aim at if your sparing with her,if you hit back and get a permitted area, with even half the power she uses , she bursts in to tears and has to have a sit down and the instructor glares at me. I avoid her if I can !

 

[JowGaWolf]

The answer to that is political and religious. I've also seen from American friends FB etc that there is a great deal of hating going on as regards gender, racism and sexism. When old white men are in power 'The Handmaid's Tale' may be become a reality if they aren't ousted as soon as possible for everyone's including the world's sake.

yeah the U.S. is in a bit of a mess these days. We have a lot of talk shows here that do a lot of hate talk. Nothing is ever right even when they get what they want. All they do is complain. It's almost 24 hours of non stop complaining and negative hate/angry speech. Minority groups, including women are the first victims of it. What the world is seeing now is the result of how these talk shows have eaten away at American society.

Unfortunately it will continue unless these talk shows are held responsible for the words that come out of their mouth. Americans have to better educate themselves and not believe everything that is posted on Facebook and that is said on the negative talk shows that complain all the time. If you go to you tube and search for "Rush Limbaugh women" then you'll be able to get a taste of "Fine American radio" and you'll hear how crazy the message is. My only hope is that the world has been in worse shape so this insanity will pass too.