Effectiveness & Authenticity

RRouuselot

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Tengu Kakushi said:
1) That was my point... its a matter of strategic advantage, not just aggression.

2) When I said "new system" I was referring to replacing an individuals ideas/habits with a given set of concepts. The system is "new" to the individual, not the world.

3) pretty sure we agree on this.

4) S/A

5) Again, that is pretty much the idea I was trying to get across.


Kool. :ultracool
 

still learning

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Hello, Effectiveness and Authenticity. Is this like ,I train from Bruce who train from Chuck,who train from Joe, who train from the old man who started it all, and today my training comes from the old man? What does it make me? Passing of knowledge usually changes with time,and the next person in line whose background and interpetations may make changes. How much is still the same? Today, no one trains like they did before?

Point is for a school, this is a good selling point. The all the students will have some kind of history. If Tiger Woods went to Karate school belonging to Joe? How many people do you think Joe will have at the end of the year. Then people will say I train at the same school as Tiger Woods did. Authenticity or Effectiveness?
 

Flatlander

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still learning said:
Hello, Effectiveness and Authenticity. Is this like ,I train from Bruce who train from Chuck,who train from Joe, who train from the old man who started it all, and today my training comes from the old man? What does it make me? Passing of knowledge usually changes with time,and the next person in line whose background and interpetations may make changes. How much is still the same? Today, no one trains like they did before?
Something to bear in mind though, an instructor is putting their reputation on the line if they promote someone to the status of instructor before they feel that student is ready to pass along and share the essence of the art. IMO, the truth of movement runs much deeper than the template of techniques. You either have it, or do not. A promoting instructor ought have the ability to discern whether or not the one they are promoting has sufficiently learned the essence and is able to pass it on effectively. That is the way things should be. So, though the "passing of knowledge usually changes with time", the basic essence should remain consistent, provided things were done in an appropriate way.

Point is for a school, this is a good selling point. The all the students will have some kind of history. If Tiger Woods went to Karate school belonging to Joe? How many people do you think Joe will have at the end of the year. Then people will say I train at the same school as Tiger Woods did. Authenticity or Effectiveness?
Well, this sort of runs counter to your first point, actually. If the truth in fact was that lineage was no guarantee of historical similarity, then how would it equate to being a good selling point? Unless, of course, you think that your primary proposition was a little known "fact" that prospective students wouldn't consider or otherwise be aware of. Is that what you meant?
 

sojobow

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RRouuselot said:
1)
4) Actually most have been “preserved” because they are usually effective. Some weaker systems have slipped through the cracks and are still around or have become weak because they have not been transmitted properly. ......
Quick question: Granted, you did use the term "most" rather than the term "all" so there is some room available. But, how would you explain why people still practice such arts as Kendo, Kenjutsu, Japanese Bow and the Samurai arts? The relative "usually effective" may be a little misleading in regards to actual usefullness.
 

RRouuselot

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still learning said:
Hello, Effectiveness and Authenticity. 1)Is this like ,I train from Bruce who train from Chuck,who train from Joe, who train from the old man who started it all, and today my training comes from the old man? What does it make me?
2)Passing of knowledge usually changes with time,and the next person in line whose background and interpetations may make changes. How much is still the same?
3) Today, no one trains like they did before?

4) Point is for a school, this is a good selling point. The all the students will have some kind of history.
5)If Tiger Woods went to Karate school belonging to Joe? How many people do you think Joe will have at the end of the year. Then people will say I train at the same school as Tiger Woods did. Authenticity or Effectiveness?


1) You are missing the point. So called traditional schools try to pass on knowledge (technical or mental) that was tested and refined over time, often in real life struggles, not “tippy-tap tournaments”. Their goal isn’t/shouldn’t be to claim: “I studied from so & so therefore I am great”. I many sword schools the teaching are actually written out and have been for several hundred years thereby keeping the intent of style intact.
2) Yes and no. People have different takes on what is being taught, however, from what I have seen of traditional schools the main points and training tactics remain for the most part unchanged.
3) Many still do. Some have improved certain aspects of training. For example the introduction of the heavy bag as, in my opinion, improved martial arts a great deal. Sports medicine has also improved the MA as well.
4) Maybe it’s a good selling point and maybe not. At least it is not deceptive. It also states that the students should exposed to some sort of codified, tested, training.
5) If the school a Mcdojo and sucked before Woods got there I don’t see how his presence will change its authenticity or effectiveness…..the owner of the school will just get rich off someone else’s name and hard work….which is typical of McDojos anyway.
 

RRouuselot

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sojobow said:
Quick question: Granted, you did use the term "most" rather than the term "all" so there is some room available. 1) But, how would you explain why people still practice such arts as Kendo, Kenjutsu, Japanese Bow and the 2)Samurai arts? The relative "usually effective" may be a little misleading in regards to actual usefullness.

1) If you live in Japan for any length of time you will come to understand that Japanese love hobbies/physical activities and clubs. Things like Tea Ceremony, Ikebana, ping-pong, kendo, Kyudo soccer, English, golf are all fairly popular. They are for the most part only hobbies for Japanese. Some hobbies have special cultural ties that Japanese appreciate like Tea Ceremony, Ikebana, Kendo, Kyudo. I have yet to meet a Japanese person that thought Kendo or Kyudo would save their life in a fight….they train in them because they like them and for some Japanese it makes them feel more “Japanese”….like wearing a kimono. One thing I have noticed is Japanese (as well as most foreigners) sometimes get Kendo (the martial sport) and Kenjutsu (the martial art) confused.
2) For example which art?
 

Don Roley

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Robert,
May I suggest you go through some of Sojobow's past posts. Those and the fact that he is a student of Frank Dux might tell you what kind of things that he is wanting for you to talk about and say.

He is also registered at e-budo and Budoseek. To tell what kind of things he wants, it is best to see what kind of things he has talked about in the past, etc.
 

sojobow

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RRouuselot said:
1) If you live in Japan for any length of time you will come to understand that Japanese love hobbies/physical activities and clubs. Things like Tea Ceremony, Ikebana, ping-pong, kendo, Kyudo soccer, English, golf are all fairly popular. They are for the most part only hobbies for Japanese. Some hobbies have special cultural ties that Japanese appreciate like Tea Ceremony, Ikebana, Kendo, Kyudo. I have yet to meet a Japanese person that thought Kendo or Kyudo would save their life in a fight….they train in them because they like them and for some Japanese it makes them feel more “Japanese”….like wearing a kimono. One thing I have noticed is Japanese (as well as most foreigners) sometimes get Kendo (the martial sport) and Kenjutsu (the martial art) confused.
2) For example which art?
Precisely what I thought and well said. Would I be going out on a limb by adding that effectiveness (as related to Martial) is not one of the overriding concerns of these practitioners? Even here in the States, we can see students with more concern for authenticity over effectiveness. Nothing wrong with this mindset as most of these practitioners will even tell us so. At one time or another, most of us wished we were Samurai.
 

sojobow

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Don Roley said:
Robert,
May I suggest you go through some of Sojobow's past posts. Those and the fact that he is a student of Frank Dux might tell you what kind of things that he is wanting for you to talk about and say.

He is also registered at e-budo and Budoseek. To tell what kind of things he wants, it is best to see what kind of things he has talked about in the past, etc.
What exactly is the purpose of this post?
 

RRouuselot

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sojobow said:
Precisely what I thought and well said. 1)Would I be going out on a limb by adding that effectiveness (as related to Martial) is not one of the overriding concerns of these practitioners? 2)Even here in the States, we can see students with more concern for authenticity over effectiveness. Nothing wrong with this mindset as most of these practitioners will even tell us so. 3)At one time or another, most of us wished we were Samurai.
1)To some it is but for the most part a Kendoka knows he will most likely get his *** kicked by a Judoka or karateka unless he has a shinai in his hands…..

2)Japanese think every MA they do is “authentic” and "effective" after all it's "Japanese" how could it be anything less........

3)I have never wanted to be a scumbag samurai…..you may want to read up on what dirtbags many of them were and how they took anal retentiveness to new heights.
 
T

Tengu Kakushi

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sojobow said:
Quick question: Granted, you did use the term "most" rather than the term "all" so there is some room available. But, how would you explain why people still practice such arts as Kendo, Kenjutsu, Japanese Bow and the Samurai arts? The relative "usually effective" may be a little misleading in regards to actual usefullness.
Your argument is somewhat misleading here. Kenjutsu, and Kyudo, were effective, in their context (Kendo is a sport, and was never meant to be "effective" in this sense). They were also tested in combat, the only reason that you could insinuate that they are not effective today would be that 1) I can't carry a sword/bow+arrows around in most countries, and 2) If I did, somebody would grab a gun. But that is not their context (and I don't really buy the "gun beats everything" card that gets played quite often, either). And it does not reflect one way or the other on schools of Jujutsu, Taijutsu etc., as hand to hand combat is still very much a daily reality, and thus these schools still have their context to function within.
 
T

Tengu Kakushi

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RRouuselot said:
3)I have never wanted to be a scumbag samurai…..you may want to read up on what dirtbags many of them were and how they took anal retentiveness to new heights.
Heheheheh....... I think that may be my new screen name... "scumbag samurai"...
 
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