Eddie Bravo - Jiu Jitsu Unleashed

[LoneRider]

I just bought Eddie Bravo's book, Jiu Jitsu Unleashed. I just started to read it (I'm still wary of learning any martial arts techniques from books, but its useful stuff to learn) and I noticed the gi versus no-gi school of thought for Jiu Jitsu.

I personally thought Eddie makes a good point, one won't always be wearing a gi whilst fighting (especially those of us who intend to use BJJ for MMA fighting).

Most of the BJJ programs I've checked out offer a basic fighting course (gi) and then they allow the option of no-gi grappling courses. Any insights on this? I'm also curious as to why this is the case with most BJJ/Jiu Jitsu schools in general?

LoneRider

 

[Andy Moynihan]

The explanation I have heard is that while you may not be wearing a gi on the street, having the gi top allows you to be more technical and play more "chess" in class and it doesn't get boring as quick.

That and some gi chokes/moves could be applied to a jacket/sufficiently sturdy untucked button shirt as well.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I like this book from Eddie.

However, as to the gi issue I live in Michigan and for about at least eight to nine months out of the year people are wearing heavier clothes such as sweatshirt or light jackets or even coats. All of the gi techniques apply easily in that kind of environment. So Gi training is very useful here in Michigan.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

I have that book. It's a little bit harder to follow compared to his new books Mastering the Rubber Guard and Mastering the Twister. I recommend getting both of these books. More pictures per technique and they are in color.

 

[Perpetual White Belt]

I like this book from Eddie.

However, as to the gi issue I live in Michigan and for about at least eight to nine months out of the year people are wearing heavier clothes such as sweatshirt or light jackets or even coats. All of the gi techniques apply easily in that kind of environment. So Gi training is very useful here in Michigan.

Same here in PA!

 

[Marvin]

I think that gi and no gi are both part of the whole bjj game, and will help you gert a deeper understanding of the art. As to not fighting with the gi, if something happens, the individuals will probably have some form of clothing on. I don't relish the idea of fighting with a nekked man
Conversly, if all you want to do is compete in no gi tournys or mma then don't train with the gi.

 

[allenjp]

I read this book and Eddie actually said in the introduction that these techniques were to learn if you want to be successful in no gi mma or submission competitions.

I know most people don't wear Gi's all the time but they also do not go almost naked like in mma or no Gi submission tourneys.

For me personally I just constantly keep questioning (sometimes in my own mind and sometimes out loud to my instructor) weather the technique I am learning willl work with someone wearing a tee-shirt or sweatshirt, or how they might be modified to work in those situations. For example most Gi chokes go right out the window with a tee shirt, but many throws or leverage holds will work just as well, especially if it's long sleeves. My instructor and senior people in my class are usually open to thinking and talking about different ways to apply techniques to meet the requirements of these situations.

BTW, if I am about to fight someone on the street, I HOPE he tries to take off his shirt so I can either run or pound him while his arms are wrapped up in his shirt.

 

[LoneRider]

Well, a good compromise was reached thanks to all respondants' responses and my own thinking. I figured I'll learn gi Brazilian Jiu Jitsu at a dojo, first (utilize it for fighting in colder northern areas for practical use) and no-gi grappling for fighting in the tropics and the MMA competitions I eventually intend to use it for.

Thanks to all of you responding,

Lone Rider

 

[punisher73]

I like this book from Eddie.

However, as to the gi issue I live in Michigan and for about at least eight to nine months out of the year people are wearing heavier clothes such as sweatshirt or light jackets or even coats. All of the gi techniques apply easily in that kind of environment. So Gi training is very useful here in Michigan.

As a fellow Michigander, I second this opinion. To sum up Eddie Bravo's approach....Marketing. What can he do to distinguish himself from the pack and get attention. I'm not saying this in a negative way, but when the market is flooding with everyone having the same product, you have to emphasize what you do different.

With a gi on you have to be alot more technical in your escapes since the clothing can be used against you to hold. So if self-defense is your focus, I think your time is better spent learning this first. Chris Hauter (sp?) of Straight Blast Gyms has a whole DVD out just on t-shirt chokes for the street and applying your BJJ on the street. He makes the argument that you probably aren't going to be fighting a naked man so he will have some type of clothing to grab onto.

As you train, even if it is with a gi, practice and limit yourself to holds and submissions that don't require a gi to do. Learn to apply them that way. Play around with holds/submissions that would work if the person had just a short sleeved shirt on vs. long sleeves etc.

I think that no-gi is pretty much just applicable to the MMA game. You said that in the forward Bravo comments on this too. This is a slight departure from what he used to say when he first came out hyping the no-gi approach. It used to be there was no point at all using a gi in training, he didn't differentiate the "why" of a gi.

 

[chinto01]

I bought this book at the recommendation of a friend. Being new to BJJ I do not know all of the players. If I read this correct Mr. Bravo's claim to fame is his beating of Royler Gracie. I read the first 25 pages of this book and had to put it down after that because the "tone" of his introduction to the book really rubbed me wrong (seemed a little cocky). Anyone else get that feeling as well?

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[allenjp]

I bought this book at the recommendation of a friend. Being new to BJJ I do not know all of the players. If I read this correct Mr. Bravo's claim to fame is his beating of Royler Gracie. I read the first 25 pages of this book and had to put it down after that because the "tone" of his introduction to the book really rubbed me wrong (seemed a little cocky). Anyone else get that feeling as well?

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

He did beat Royler and you can watch the video on youtube. The funny thing is he really used mostly traditional techniques to do it. I don't know about cocky, he has a lot of stuff that seems useful in different situations, but even in MMA, most of the stuff you see guys use is good ol' traditional Gracie Jiu Jitsu positions.

I don't buy his arguments about the Gi training making BJJ players ineffective in the ring (or cage) I train at a Gracie Barra school and we have no Gi classes as well, but I really think that even with just Gi training if you keep the right mindset about it you'll be fine, even when facing someone without a Gi.

The other thing to remember is that like others have stated here, in real life most people don't go around bare chested, and many things trained with a Gi will work even with a tee shirt. Just be sure to always be thinking about slight modifications for when someone isn't wearing a Gi.

But I would go ahead and read the book, Eddie is a great Jiu Jitsu player, and he has great insight on a lot of things...

 

[Ybot]

Aww, the age old question (in BJJ)... "To Gi, or not to Gi?"

The most common arguments pro, and then con gi (with counter arguments following immediately after):

Pro Gi training:

*Training with the gi is a far more technical game. There are far more options for attacks (gi chokes, and grips etc.) so you are forced to develop high levels of defense, because it is just plain harder to get away once caught.

-While we concede that it is true that the grips and friction of wearing a gi can make it harder to escape submission attempts, it is also true that training in the gi can create bad gripping habits that are useless when your opponent has light clothing or if you decide to fight MMA. Gi grappling relies too much on these grips so a lot of your attack set ups (which rely on grips) will no longer be valid. Also, if you train in the gi you are use to a much higher ability to control your opponent with your grips. This control with out the gi is much harder to maintain without gi grips, and especially against an athletic opponent.

Con Gi

*People don't wear gi's on the street! So, by training no gi you don't learn to rely on grips that you may not have if the opponent is wearing light clothing that will tear, or no shirt at all. Since you don't rely on clothing grips, everything you learn will be applicable and so you cut out the unnecessary.

-While we concede that no-gi techniques are still applicable when an opponent is wearing clothing, and not always vice-versa, it is important to acknowledge that the dynamics of rolling in clothing is different than rolling no-gi. To only train no-gi you will be unable to develop proper defense because the lack of friction caused by the clothing make many attacks easier to avoid.

Okay, my take:

To be a complete grappler you really should train both gi and no-gi.

Gi training (most of the time) is more technical, because of the reasons stated above, but also because much of the explosive energy and strength of the natural athlete can be negated through grips. The game becomes a bit slower moving so you can really begin to feel what proper body positioning should be like when you do certain types of techniques (this kinesthetic awareness that I find you get more often with the gi translates directly to the no-gi game).

You should train no-gi to understand the importance of explosiveness (in the proper places), and for the overall quicker pace of no-gi rolling. You have to learn to apply techniques on the fly, and learn to recover and attack again after failed attacks. These fluid quick style attacks can help improve the same kinds of attacks when training with the gi, and the overall more athletic nature of no-gi training will help you understand better the advantage to that kind of fitness.

 

[allenjp]

Aww, the age old question (in BJJ)... "To Gi, or not to Gi?"

The most common arguments pro, and then con gi (with counter arguments following immediately after):

Pro Gi training:

*Training with the gi is a far more technical game. There are far more options for attacks (gi chokes, and grips etc.) so you are forced to develop high levels of defense, because it is just plain harder to get away once caught.

-While we concede that it is true that the grips and friction of wearing a gi can make it harder to escape submission attempts, it is also true that training in the gi can create bad gripping habits that are useless when your opponent has light clothing or if you decide to fight MMA. Gi grappling relies too much on these grips so a lot of your attack set ups (which rely on grips) will no longer be valid. Also, if you train in the gi you are use to a much higher ability to control your opponent with your grips. This control with out the gi is much harder to maintain without gi grips, and especially against an athletic opponent.

Con Gi

*People don't wear gi's on the street! So, by training no gi you don't learn to rely on grips that you may not have if the opponent is wearing light clothing that will tear, or no shirt at all. Since you don't rely on clothing grips, everything you learn will be applicable and so you cut out the unnecessary.

-While we concede that no-gi techniques are still applicable when an opponent is wearing clothing, and not always vice-versa, it is important to acknowledge that the dynamics of rolling in clothing is different than rolling no-gi. To only train no-gi you will be unable to develop proper defense because the lack of friction caused by the clothing make many attacks easier to avoid.

Okay, my take:

To be a complete grappler you really should train both gi and no-gi.

Gi training (most of the time) is more technical, because of the reasons stated above, but also because much of the explosive energy and strength of the natural athlete can be negated through grips. The game becomes a bit slower moving so you can really begin to feel what proper body positioning should be like when you do certain types of techniques (this kinesthetic awareness that I find you get more often with the gi translates directly to the no-gi game).

You should train no-gi to understand the importance of explosiveness (in the proper places), and for the overall quicker pace of no-gi rolling. You have to learn to apply techniques on the fly, and learn to recover and attack again after failed attacks. These fluid quick style attacks can help improve the same kinds of attacks when training with the gi, and the overall more athletic nature of no-gi training will help you understand better the advantage to that kind of fitness.

Ybot, I agree with almost everything you said, except that Gi grips are USELESS when fighting someone with light clothing. A lot of them CAN still work...

 

[jks9199]

Ybot, I agree with almost everything you said, except that Gi grips are USELESS when fighting someone with light clothing. A lot of them CAN still work...

Ybot did a good analysis... but something I'd add is training in street clothes some, too. Can you make the same moves in the clothes you normally wear? Often -- the answer is no!

 

[allenjp]

But many other times the answer is-yes! Albeit a lot of times with slight modifications as to how the technique is applied.

 

[Ybot]

Ybot, I agree with almost everything you said, except that Gi grips are USELESS when fighting someone with light clothing. A lot of them CAN still work...

Your right, absolutely. Even with light tearable clothing grips CAN be useful, but you shouldn't count on them 100%. Really what I was trying to do in the pros and cons section was give the common arguments I've heard for and against it as well as the usual comebacks in both cases.

Really, my take on the whole controversy is just those last few paragraphs. I feel that training in one can help your performance in the other and vice versa.

It is kind of interesting, though, that Eddie Bravo noticed the trend of guys who trained only no-gi relying heavily on their speed, strength, and athletic ability, and reasoning that Jiu-jitsu is about technique tried to find a way to bring a technique centric training style to no-gi. I believe that that is what his whole training philosophy is about, and what his ultimate intention was in developing his style of no-gi training. I think he has been some what successful, but the jury is still out IMO if he really has met the goal. Time, I suppose will tell, but I have my doubts.

I do want to say that I absolutely disagree that no-gi is a less technical game than gi Jiu-Jitsu, though. My personal experience in rolling with technical wrestlers (like Uriah Faber) and my personal experience of training no-gi have shown me that proper technique in no gi will take you farther than anything. The problem is early in training the quickest route to success in no-gi comes from speed, strength, and endurance, and so people get in the habit of relying on those attributes if they don't train in the gi occasionally and are forced to slow down and FEEL the technique. I do believe, however, that if someone were patient enough, careful enough, and technique minded enough they could become just as technical training no-gi only, but I find people like that are few and far between.

 

[allenjp]

Really, my take on the whole controversy is just those last few paragraphs. I feel that training in one can help your performance in the other and vice versa.

I agree with you here. I was recently reading an interview Anderson Silva gave on Sherdog about his upcoming fight on Saturday and he commented that he has been training Jiu Jitsu in a Gi recently and that that has improved his ground game. Interesting that one of the top no Gi MMA fighters would train in a Gi to improve his ground game. He didn't give any details though...

I also agree with you about not relying on Gi techniques 100% if you're fighting someone with a tee shirt on, one key thing I try to do is practice the techniques on someone who has a tee shirt on so I can see which might work. Sometimes I have to buy the tee shirt they wear though because they don't look too good when we get done.

BTW I train with someone named Mark here in Escondido who says he knows you. He has only good things to say about you and the school you train at, apparently he used to train there before he moved down here.

 

[Dagney Taggert]

Speaking of Eddie Bravo, he is doing a seminar in Riverside on March 12. Any opinions on whether it would be worthwhile? All the marketing and hype aside, do you think he would teach a good class?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Speaking of Eddie Bravo, he is doing a seminar in Riverside on March 12. Any opinions on whether it would be worthwhile? All the marketing and hype aside, do you think he would teach a good class?

I think if you have the chance you should go and check it out.

 

[matt.m]

In a nutshell I have been told that if you are really good and technical with a gi then no gi is just icing on the cake. I have done judo, wrestling, no gi for a long time and those who I have seen do the best are outstanding at gi.