E-Hogus, helping some?

[ATC]

After 2 years of watching competitions with them now, I have some interesting observations.

I have noticed that the more aggressive fighters have trouble scoring on them and that counter fighters tend to score more.

In the past the fighter that attacked and made a loud thud would get scored by judges regardless if they hit the target or not. Many times the thud noise came from the arm pad being hit and not the hogu at all. We have all seen the arm hit scored. Also the back shoulder would also be scored in the past as well as the hip or butt area from time to time. This seemed to favor that attacker as the counter kicker would most times score but the judges either did not see the point or were not in sync when scoring the counter kick. Blocking seems to be a valid technique now.

Also the fist pump in the air after every kick would some time coax a point out of the judges as well. That and the coach in the chair fist pumping and yelling "yeah!!!!" also. Now this is just for show.

Also another thing we would all see are the phantom points. You know the points that would go up even though no one even kicked or punched at all. Sometimes you would see 3 or 4 of these phantom points in one round. I can remember on time thinking, "what are they doing holding down the trigger?". I kid you not, I saw a 21 to 23 round once. I don't even think either kid threw 15 kicks a piece.

Well now with the e-hogu, I have notice that many that never got their counter kicks scored are now getting them scored and they are now winning. I say this because my daughter is not a fist pumper, nor does she kihap (yell) very loud if at all, with her kicks. She was deemed a boring fighter by our master and was told that she would not win being that way.

Well ever since using the e-hogus she has been winning and beating people she never came close to beating before. She lost multiple times to Peak Performance competitors and many others that are considered the at the top of her division. Girls she would lose to by 1 or 2 points she is now beating by double digits. She still fights the same but shots that would not have scored before by judges are now being scored. And shots that would have scored against her are now not being scored. She love to block and counter.

Now just the opposite is happening with my son. He is still winning but not by the 20-1 scores anymore. Now they are 8-0 and the likes. He is clearly not getting all the arm shots scored that use to score for him.

From my observation it seems that the e-hogus have helped the so called boring fighters and forced what I call crazy kickers to adapt.

Anyone else have any observations?

 

[terryl965]

Yea we have noticed this a s well, but it does have some bad issue still but getting better. I'am hoping for a better time next year when some more changes happen for the fighters.

 

[d1jinx]

while I will be the first to say "It still needs more refining"...

I am SOOOO HAPPY the days of the aggresive fighter who throws a million wild and overwhelming kicks while screaming and having a coach screaming then a million points go up and they win, when in actuallity they never even scored one point.... AND YET THEY WIN.... are over.

I sincerely Hope the E-Hogus take Taekwondo back to a precise attack/counter type fight with QUALITY techniques.

Now thw countering fighter has a GOOD chance to win.

Its no longer that loud/wild/screaming guy.... well sometimes it still is but u get it....

And guess what.... You can BLOCK KICKS NOW...

Yup get an arm in between you and the leg/foot... NO POINT.

How many times we seen a shot blocked and points go up.


Hey.... want a cheater secret?????? wear an extra baggy top with long sleeves and let the shirt do the blocking for you!!!!

So yes, there are still defects and flaws, but things are heading in the right direction. I just wish an Electronics company with some AWESOME technology would invest time into it.... Like Samsung/Sony/etc....

 

[d1jinx]

Oh and to add...

Here;'s what I see happening soon if they dont find another way to prevent the "Cheating" I mentioned above....

The Uniforms will change. The pant legs will go to a shorter leg or a Bloused trouser and the sleeves will get narrower or shorter to prevent clothing material from blocking sensors.

I have already had my ONE decent fighter take thier dobuk to the cleaners and have the legs bloused with an elastic band. They are not tight around the ankle yet not loose to cover the sensor. They end just at the bottom of the shin guard. It has more of a tapered look. baggy legs yet tapering close to the ankle....

Hell, maybe I should patent it first!!!!!!!! then sell them and make a MILLION BILLION DOLLARS selling to the suckers....errrr people of the world!!!!

 

[bluekey88]

Our head coach made an astrute observation about this. the current system requires perfect technique for a kick to score. That is, your basic roundhouse kick has to come up parallel to the ground and make solid contact to score. This means proper hip turn and pivot on the supporting foot. This eliminates the quick rising angle kick as a scoring kick (it doesn't hit square to the target).

this means that our young players are protecting their knees and this will be of benefit in the long run. fast young athletes could get away with doing that rising kick without a pivot which puts enormouse torque on the knee joint...forcing a better angle with proper pivot and hip turn means less stress on the knees.

I thought it was an original observation.

Peace,
Erik

 

[mango.man]

Hey.... want a cheater secret?????? wear an extra baggy top with long sleeves and let the shirt do the blocking for you!!!!

I learned this little tip when going through my pictures from this year's US Open and I found This nice little photo.

 

[StudentCarl]

Interesting comment about the E-hogu evening the playing field for the counter fighter. My son is a natural counter fighter, so I've been watching this in practices (we have some E-hogus at the school). I'm not convinced that the only difference is removing the judge rewarding aggression. I'm seeing a lot of cases where the attacker doesn't score because he/she is moving forward and doesn't get the distance right. Lots of ankle and lower shin kicks that used to score won't anymore. I can't prove it, but I wonder if the counter kickers are doing better with distance management to get the correct striking surface contact.

Carl

 

[Gorilla]

I learned this little tip when going through my pictures from this year's US Open and I found This nice little photo.

The Mexican team does this allot saw it in Spain

 

[bluekey88]

Interesting comment about the E-hogu evening the playing field for the counter fighter. My son is a natural counter fighter, so I've been watching this in practices (we have some E-hogus at the school). I'm not convinced that the only difference is removing the judge rewarding aggression. I'm seeing a lot of cases where the attacker doesn't score because he/she is moving forward and doesn't get the distance right. Lots of ankle and lower shin kicks that used to score won't anymore. I can't prove it, but I wonder if the counter kickers are doing better with distance management to get the correct striking surface contact.

Carl

That's what happened with me in my fight. Everytime I moved, my opponent would shift slightly, maybe an inch or so...just enough so that if i kicked, my distance was off.

I knew that was what I should be doing...hell, I've even tried doing it...but to expereince getting shut down in such a fashion was educational.

Peace,
Erik

 

[Tez3]

Are you liable to get cheating do you think, along the lines seen in the Olympic fencing where the electronics was rigged to score when it didn't?

 

[terryl965]

Are you liable to get cheating do you think, along the lines seen in the Olympic fencing where the electronics was rigged to score when it didn't?

I am sure the same rules would apply, but I personally have not heard of it.

 

[bluekey88]

There was soem cheating intiially. Fighters would wet their gloves prior to the match, and this would cause punches to get scored (the refs are supposed to do that). The newer LaJust system is supposed to fix this...however, its a matter of time before other loopholes are found and exploited.

No system is perfect...the question is are the imperfections tolerable.

What will be interesting to watch is in a few years when LaJusts exlusivity deal goeas away and other systems can compete at USAT. I think that competition will spur more improvements (hopefully) to the systems.

Peace,
Erik

 

[StudentCarl]

Are you liable to get cheating do you think, along the lines seen in the Olympic fencing where the electronics was rigged to score when it didn't?

This is an interesting question for a different reason: at present the NGB is supplying the hogus. You get whatever you grab from the pile, so there's an inherent element of fairness: nobody has access to their hogus in advance. There will need to be some validation/testing onsite of personally owned E-hogus if/when the time comes that athletes supply their own, as I can imagine athletes gaming the electronics.

 

[d1jinx]

There was soem cheating intiially. Fighters would wet their gloves prior to the match, and this would cause punches to get scored (the refs are supposed to do that). The newer LaJust system is supposed to fix this...however, its a matter of time before other loopholes are found and exploited.

I made several competitors go wipe the water off their gloves, hogus, and feet when I was center ref-ing.


As for the distance:

well thats where the skill, technique and pure talent come in. And thats what is the BEST thing about e-hogus, the skilled, talented, and technical fighters will win and hopefully not the "POPULAR" fighter.

 

[d1jinx]

I learned this little tip when going through my pictures from this year's US Open and I found This nice little photo.

YUP.... no point.

 

[ATC]

There was soem cheating intiially. Fighters would wet their gloves prior to the match, and this would cause punches to get scored (the refs are supposed to do that). The newer LaJust system is supposed to fix this...however, its a matter of time before other loopholes are found and exploited.

No system is perfect...the question is are the imperfections tolerable.

What will be interesting to watch is in a few years when LaJusts exlusivity deal goeas away and other systems can compete at USAT. I think that competition will spur more improvements (hopefully) to the systems.

Peace,
Erik

Yes the wet punch was to be fixed in the most current system (version 8). But guess what? Nope, it still exists. Saw one match where a girls glove was wet and she won in OT with a punch that did not get scored by the judges. There was a major protest and the ring stopped for some time. In the end they did not overturn the OT win. They called it equipment malfunction and let it be. Master Shim was really upset as it was his fighter that lost. Was not a good at all.

 

[bluekey88]

Yes the wet punch was to be fixed in the most current system (version 8). But guess what? Nope, it still exists. Saw one match where a girls glove was wet and she won in OT with a punch that did not get scored by the judges. There was a major protest and the ring stopped for some time. In the end they did not overturn the OT win. They called it equipment malfunction and let it be. Master Shim was really upset as it was his fighter that lost. Was not a good at all.

Wow, hadn't heard about that one. Ah well, the sagas continue...

 

[terryl965]

Yea I heard a few people complain about the gloves being wet but I really did not understand why it effects the hogu like that maybe LaJust can answer that question.

 

[LaJust]

Yea I heard a few people complain about the gloves being wet but I really did not understand why it effects the hogu like that maybe LaJust can answer that question.

I'll give it my best shot. As a preface, it is worth mentioning that the LaJust system was designed to be a complete solution, that means scoring head shots, punches and kicks and we have the technology to do this (some people may already have seen our sensor gloves). Today, only the kicks are approved for electronic scoring but we look forward to introducing the rest of the technology in the future when we are allowed.

The foot sensor socks and the hand sensor gloves both have a conductive (metallic like) material embedded into them (this is the reason you should not put them in the dryer). On the front of the hogu are 3 sensor panels which contain many little "dots", each dot is also made of a conductive material.

When the sock or glove contacts with the "dots" on the hogu it effectively "completes the circuit" (technically, it is actually doing some complex measuring of the relative resistance changes) and at the same time it measures the impact force using the impact sensor pad located inside the hogu.

So what causes the "wet punch" scenario? Simply put, water is also a conductive material (as anyone who has got an electric shock with wet hands knows all too well!) and so a wet punch can trick the sensor into thinking there is a sock or glove hitting the hogu. In our version 8 hogus we adjusted the computer to make it more sensitive to the difference between our sensor material and water but it is difficult to eliminate. In the future, if sensor gloves are used for scoring punches this should become a nonissue. For now, it is something judges should check for.

We are very pleased with the performance of the new generation version 8 chest protectors used at the juniors. They are designed with more sensitivity to measure accuracy and to have a much longer lifespan with updated materials and fewer parts to wear out or become defective. If you own a previous generation of hogu purchased in the US or Canada from us we thank you and will upgrade it at no charge for the parts and labor

Jonathan

 

[d1jinx]

As a preface, it is worth mentioning that the LaJust system was designed to be a complete solution, that means scoring head shots, punches and kicks and we have the technology to do this (some people may already have seen our sensor gloves). Today, only the kicks are approved for electronic scoring but we look forward to introducing the rest of the technology in the future when we are allowed.

So, just curious, why would the WTF not allow a "complete" system? I mean, that isn't playing fairly if you ask me. Why would the WTF not want the best system, and allow something to work incomplete and creating flaws within a system expecting it to work.

How can you get them to allow the rest of the system to be used?
Can't USAT trump the WTF for thier USAT ONLY competitions like regionals, J.O.s or seniors?