Dry January

Wing Woo Gar

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Because in this case it really cannot be quantified.

The most common reason for fecal transplant is recurring C. difficile infections. The most common cause of C. diff infections is antibiotics. But please do not refuse antibiotics because of this.
Oh I know, Iā€™m just joking. C diff is found in a significant number of surgical patients requiring repeat or revisions to orthopedic procedures where chronic osteomyelitis is a factor. Long term Vancomycin often appears in the history.
 

MetalBoar

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Small but not non-existent.
Yes, small, but non-existent. Depending on which studies you choose to trust, it can be a small benefit to longevity and overall health or a small detriment. Either way, a small impact.

All science is observational!
There's some debate about the reliability and value of observational studies, but there is most certainly a difference between a controlled, randomized, clinical trial and an observational study.

Self-reporting (qualitative) data can be dubious so liver function (blood) tests act to give a quantitative snap shot of liver health.
Yes, but if many people say they drink 2 drinks a day (moderate drinking according to the CDC) and in truth they drink 4 drinks a day (well over the line into heavy drinking according to the CDC), and you look at those blood tests and say those results apply to moderate drinking (as defined by the CDC) you're coming to inaccurate conclusions. If people who say they are drinking 3-4 drinks a day are actually having 8, then you also have skewed data for what you're labeling as heavy drinking as well. The blood test will tell you what their liver health looks like, but not how many drinks caused it.

Of course! Theyā€™re mission is to enhance liver health and prevent disease and suffering.
I'm not saying that hepatologists are bad at their job, I'm saying that if your job is to take care of people with liver problems you're going to see a lot of people with liver problems and you're going to care about things that damage the liver. You may be blinded to the overall impact of alcohol on your patients' heart health or risk of stroke or cancer or whatever. If the data doesn't support the idea that those who consume alcohol are dying younger than those who don't, then either the data is wrong or insufficient, the damage to the liver is minimal enough to be irrelevant to overall longevity, or while the damage to the liver may be significant alcohol has some beneficial impact on other health conditions that outweighs this negative impact (on the general population - individual risk is of course, individual).

I think the point is, alcohol is a metabolic ā€˜poisonā€™. If you drink a couple of units of it everyday, it will probably not do the vast majority of people any harm. If a person has poor liver function due to disease, lifestyle habits etc, then it might do harm. If you are personally happy with that small riskā€¦.if drinking 2 units a day, everyday is your raison dā€™ etreā€¦then in your opinion the benefits outweigh the potential risks. If you just drink alcohol for something to do when your out and itā€™s ā€˜just thereā€™ and your able to socialise and chat and be amiable without alcohol as a way of loosening up, then maybe reconsider your choices.
Lots of medications are also toxic, so the fact that alcohol is a "metabolic ā€˜poisonā€™" doesn't guarantee that it can't be of benefit, or of no significant impact, to overall health. As the old saying goes, "The difference between poison and medicine is in the dose". Even water is toxic if you drink too much too quickly. Lots of things can be bad for your health. Sugar is bad for your health and fructose consumption is also correlated with fatty liver disease. I'm still not sure that a strict ketogenic diet is necessary for health. Similarly, I really doubt that we have enough information to say that a couple of drinks a day, much less a handful of drinks a month, is likely to have a measurable, detrimental impact on the average person.
 

Steve

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Anything to avoid the poo enema, except quitting drinking! I figure I will just get drunk while they gimme the cure. Last hurrah ?
poo enema? What even is that? Iā€™m so confused right now.

Also, can someone explain how alcohol caused nonalcoholic fatty liver disease (NAFLD)?
 
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Gyakuto

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I promise to be a good boy! I promise to change my destructive ways! Please donā€™t give me the communal fermented reverse enema!
If youā€™re really bad, the put sand in the tubeā€™s lube šŸ˜³
 
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Gyakuto

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poo enema? What even is that? Iā€™m so confused right now.
Iā€™ll try!

There in mounting evidence that the population of ā€˜goodā€™ bacteria in the gut have a significant effect on health and the mechanisms of that are being intensively investigated. Our modern lifestyles/diets are thought to alter the relative proportions of good and not-so-good bacteria and things like sugar, alcohol, Mars Bars and clotted cream often being quoted as bad things (šŸ˜³šŸ¤¤) to ingest for the gutā€™s healthy ā€˜biomeā€™, as this balance of bacteria is called.

It has been suggested that drinking/eating good bacteria foods (sauerkraut, kombucha, Yakult, Kefir, kimchi etc) will help repopulate the guts biome with good bacteria. However the digestive system is designed to attenuate the amount of bacteria etc entering it (the bacteria static effect of 2 molar gastric hydrochloric acid, for example) and thus itā€™s difficult to get sufficient amounts of these orally ingested good bacteria make it into the gut where they can repopulate it but not impossible. However, these protective mechanisms are ā€˜front-loadedā€™ in the gastrointestinal system (GI tract) because that it usually the direction in which bacteria enters the GI tract. So researchers thought of putting good bacteria into the GI system via the anus and into the intestines where they could proliferate and restore a healthy biome and the health benefits that brings. The faeces of healthy individuals is laden with the specifically good bacteria in all the right proportions so this became the candidate substance to wazz up the jacksie (technical phrase, that)

However, we can make the guts a more hospitable place for good bacteria to grow by:

1) Trying to eat 30 different types of plants each week
2) Eating ā€˜colourfulā€™ foods (rather than beige foods)
3) Adding fermented foods to your diet
4) Give you GI tract a break from digestion (time-restricted eating)
5) Limit refined (ultra refined) foods
(I copied this list from my TV screen where Prof Tim Spector happens to be talking about healthy guts on breakfast TV - synchronicity!)
 
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Gyakuto

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Yes, small, but non-existent. Depending on which studies you choose to trust, it can be a small benefit to longevity and overall health or a small detriment. Either way, a small impact.
But an impact, supporting the ā€˜no safe limitā€™ suggestion by the experts.
There's some debate about the reliability and value of observational studies, but there is most certainly a difference between a controlled, randomized, clinical trial and an observational study.
Ah, weā€™re at odds here. I meant that looking at data is observational. I think you mean ā€˜self-reported dataā€™. Yes, people lie about their alcohol, food, drug intake because they are often shameful of it! šŸ˜€ When my other half is taking a medical history from a new patient, she often doubles the self-reported amounts of alcohol in the notes (in pencil) and refers to liver function blood tests to verify or otherwise. Have you noticed that when a doctor wants to know how much you weigh, they confirm your reported weight by putting you on scales! šŸ˜‚

Yes, but if many people say they drink 2 drinks a day (moderate drinking according to the CDC) and in truth they drink 4 drinks a day (well over the line into heavy drinking according to the CDC), and you look at those blood tests and say those results apply to moderate drinking (as defined by the CDC) you're coming to inaccurate conclusions. If people who say they are drinking 3-4 drinks a day are actually having 8, then you also have skewed data for what you're labeling as heavy drinking as well. The blood test will tell you what their liver health looks like, but not how many drinks caused it.
But the deleterious effects on the liver ( negative changes in liver function) are what are important, not the absolute amount of alcohol consumed. One pint of strong lager has a bigger negative affect on my liver than it would on a 6 foot 9 inch fat bloke!

I'm not saying that hepatologists are bad at their job, I'm saying that if your job is to take care of people with liver problems you're going to see a lot of people with liver problems and you're going to care about things that damage the liver. You may be blinded to the overall impact of alcohol on your patients' heart health or risk of stroke or cancer or whatever. If the data doesn't support the idea that those who consume alcohol are dying younger than those who don't, then either the data is wrong or insufficient,
Or the factors involved are extremely complex, show individual variation and non-linear. I think this is the case and you canā€™t be sure until you do the research. Small amounts of alcohol might be fine for me, but terrible for that the 6ā€™9ā€ bloke, but we donā€™t know until we see what alcohol does to us. Thus the safest thing to advise, for the whole population is ā€˜there is no safe limitā€™.

the damage to the liver is minimal enough to be irrelevant to overall longevity, or while the damage to the liver may be significant alcohol has some beneficial impact on other health conditions that outweighs this negative impact (on the general population - individual risk is of course, individual).
Interestingly, the experts expanded on their research findings by saying, the small benefits of drinking alcohol are obliterated by the deleterious effects of alcohol.

Lots of medications are also toxic, so the fact that alcohol is a "metabolic ā€˜poisonā€™" doesn't guarantee that it can't be of benefit,
See above. I take medication that have terrible potential side effects, but they are better than the potential effects of my medical condition. My doctor and I have made an informed decision that Iā€™m better off taking the medication, than not. Taking alcohol is a lifestyle choice.

>As the old saying goes, "The difference between poison and medicine is in the dose".

Plutonium? Asbestos? Old sayings often donā€™t bear close scrutiny

>Even water is toxic if you drink too much too quickly.

Well, itā€™s the dilution affects of too much water that are bad for your health rather than water itself. Your electrolyte levels are altered beyond normal life-perpetuation physiological parameters. No amount of alcohol is required for a normal life.

>Lots of things can be bad for your health. Sugar is bad for your health and fructose consumption is also correlated >with fatty liver disease.

You mean over-consumption. We have to consume/convert into, some sugars or we would rapidly die. Alcohol is not required in any amount for life.

>I'm still not sure that a strict ketogenic diet is necessary for health.

Yes, I agree. Any extreme should be viewed with suspicion - except drinking no alcohol šŸ˜‰

>Similarly, I really doubt that we have enough information to say that a couple of drinks a day, much less a handful of >drinks a month, is likely to have a measurable, detrimental impact on the average person.

And world-class experts, based on current research, disagree with that. Iā€™d go with peer-reviewed data than ā€˜gut instinctā€™.

(Sorry, I did something weird with the editing there, hence the chevrons)
 
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Gyakuto

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(May I say, many of the conversations we have on here are the most enjoyable, informative ones Iā€™ve has since I gave up work. You can probably tell I like to be contrary and play devils advocate for the sake of intellectual jousting. Thank you all, so muchā€¦sincerely. Please do have a couple of drinks )

Right, where was Iā€¦šŸ¤”? Oh yes, all alcohol is the devilā€™s semen, and you all drink too much because youā€™re feeble-minded, have no discipline and self-medicate to boost your under-developed personalities and make you vaguely interesting to your preferred gender šŸ˜„ Actually, thatā€™s why I do martial arts šŸ˜³
 

Gerry Seymour

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these kinds of extreme claims seem a little ridiculous to me.
I think claims like this tend to come from the variance in human response, and the speaker's risk aversion. So for some people there may be no safe level of consumption. I can't find any evidence that this is a fair statement for people in general, especially given there have been studies that suggest some possible health benefits for some people from light consumption.
 

Gerry Seymour

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But an impact, supporting the ā€˜no safe limitā€™ suggestion by the experts.
As someone pointed out, there are also sometimes small benefits listed. If there's a small chance of a small negative impact, and a small chance of a small positive impact, "safe" would appear to be hard to define.
 

Bill Mattocks

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I drank a lot in my Marine Corps days. Tapered off afterwards. Ended up drinking maybe a couple times a month, then a couple times a year, never to the point of being drunk anymore.

Now I'm on blood thinners. Doctor says no more alcohol, it increases the effect of blood thinners and generally screws with the other meds I take for my heart. So I stopped drinking. Wasn't hard to go from a couple drinks a year to none.

I still like beer and bourbon, but I can't have any, so oh well. No big deal.

The only thing that ticks me off is my cardiologist doesn't believe me. I guess lots of people lie about it. Every time I see him, he asks if I snore or have sleep apnea (I don't). Then he asks me how much I drink. I say "none" and he says "you need to tell me the truth." I say "none" and he writes down "Patient claims not to snore, have sleep apnea, or drink alcohol." FFS.

Is booze that pervasive that *everybody* drinks and lies about it?

Anyway. I don't know if alcohol is a net benefit or not. Doesn't matter to me. Smoking was definitely bad for me and I quit a 2 pack a day habit nearly 20 years ago. THAT was hard. Giving up booze, no problem.
 

Dirty Dog

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Also, can someone explain how alcohol caused nonalcoholic fatty liver disease (NAFLD)?
It doesn't. Hence the name. But NAFLD has a habit of progressing to cirrhosis. Consuming alcohol with NAFLD can accelerate this process.

This sort of interaction between disease processes is not exactly uncommon. Another example would be Alpha-1 Antitrypsin deficiency emphysema. A genetic problem causes this particular type of bullous emphysema. Smoking, even though it doesn't cause the emphysema, will cause it to progress faster.

Basically, if you have an organ system that is failing or working less effectively than it should because of X, it's probably a bad idea to do Y, when Y also stresses that organ.
 
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Gyakuto

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The only thing that ticks me off is my cardiologist doesn't believe me. I guess lots of people lie about it. Every time I see him, he asks if I snore or have sleep apnea (I don't). Then he asks me how much I drink. I say "none" and he says "you need to tell me the truth." I say "none" and he writes down "Patient claims not to snore, have sleep apnea, or drink alcohol." FFS.
I wonder if thatā€™s just the way he has to record it in your notes for legal reasons? Have you asked him?
Is booze that pervasive that *everybody* drinks and lies about it?
People are generally very defensive about their alcohol consumption and I donā€™t know why. Is it because it hints at being unable to control oneself? I suppose itā€™s the same for overeating with the blame going on easy availability of cheap calorific food, invasive advertising, heavy bones and hormonal issues! My bones are very heavy, by the way.šŸ˜‘
Anyway. I don't know if alcohol is a net benefit or not. Doesn't matter to me. Smoking was definitely bad for me and I quit a 2 pack a day habit nearly 20 years ago. THAT was hard. Giving up booze, no problem.
I remember an interview with Ozzy Osbourne in which he recounted how he managed to give up alcohol and drugs like heroine and cocaine with some serious effort, but cigarettes were the hardest of all of them to give up with frequent relapses! Astonishing, so well done Bill Mattocks!
 
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Gyakuto

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I still like beer and bourbon, but I can't have any, so oh well. No big deal.
Does alcohol-free beer not suit you Bill? I quite like it as it has a nice hoppy finish to it. I noticed Christmas advertising of Gordonā€™s gin showing they now do a alcohol-free versionā€¦the first ā€˜freeā€™ spirit of which Iā€™ve become aware.

Or, if your a real martial artist, you could swill it around your mouth and spit it out ! šŸ˜‰šŸ’ŖšŸ½
 

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