Parenting Question

[bushidomartialarts]

Hey all. My wife and I are starting to have questions occur to us what with the new son and all.

One thing we've decided is to allow alcohol at the dinner table starting well before 21. We figure it should, ultimately, develop kids with more responsible attitudes about alcohol once they get access in high school and college.

What I haven't been able to find is any good research on ages and amounts. I figure there's an age range before which alcohol can harm development, but after which it's like an adult drinking. I figure there's also some info somewhere on how much is too much...a shot glass of watered down wine or beer for an 11 year old, but your own damn bottle of Fat Tire at 16?

Most of my research has found only propaganda: "Thou shalt not drink before 21, and this is why" nonsense. I found one study that showed how countries with early drinking have more alcoholism, but far fewer alcohol abuse related deaths at college. But that's about it.

Any leads, thoughts, info out there?

 

[Bigshadow]

I don't have any info, but I suspect that wine at the table in some other parts of the world is not uncommon. I don't think that the age of 21 means anything other than it IS the law. Just my opinions. I am interested to see how this thread turns out.

 

[Lisa]

Jason,

I can't give you any statistics, I can only offer you my own personal experiences.

I have allowed my oldest daughter, and soon her younger sister will be allowed to also, have a drink during an occasion. We don't usually drink much in our home, often being without any kind of alcohol available for months at a time. However, if say, we are at my husband's parent's place and all the sibling and their children are together, my oldest does participate and have a drink with us. My youngest will as well.

What I am trying to teach my children is that having a responsible drink is no big deal. I am trying to take the mystery out of alcohol in hopes that they will take their experiences with them and remember them when I am not around and they are out with their friends. I can't control what they do when I am not around, I can only control what I teach them and hope that mom's voice rings in their ears when they are faced with decisions.

So, far it seems to be working. A couple of weeks ago one of my daughters was faced with a friend going off and getting drunk. She chose not too and called me very upset. I gotta tell ya, I was damn proud of her decision.

 

[Flying Crane]

Glad to see a reasonable approach, and reasonable attitudes about this.

 

[jim777]

My wife and I have ocassionally (3 or 4 times?) allowed the kids to have a sip of wine from one of our glasses to get a taste of it. They have universally decided that wine is nasty
The "21 year old" thing is totally a legal issue; it was 18 when I was of age, and I'm sure it is likely non-existant for wine in some countries. Another thing to think about is that hard liquor is just plain nasty for the most part, so that in itself is a deterrent. I think I would allow my kids to have a small glass of wine or something with an equally low alcohol % when they got to be 16, but no younger and no more. If I had children that age my opinion would mean more, but I don't, so take it with a shot of...uh, I mean a grain of salt

jim

 

[bushidomartialarts]

What I am trying to teach my children is that having a responsible drink is no big deal. I am trying to take the mystery out of alcohol in hopes that they will take their experiences with them and remember them when I am not around and they are out with their friends. I can't control what they do when I am not around, I can only control what I teach them and hope that mom's voice rings in their ears when they are faced with decisions.

That's what we're hoping for. I have an image of my son ten years from now, 17 at a party, having some kid hand him a Miller Lite, and saying "Don't hand me that pig piss. Dad lets me have Fat Tire at home."

 

[michaeledward]

Wine is food. It should be enjoyed in the same manner as one who enjoys vegetables, starches and proteins.

Although it may be difficult to find, I recall a wonderful essay by Jeff 'The Frugal Gourmet' Smith, in his book 'The Frugal Gourmet Cooks with Wine' about this idea. I recommend it highly.

I think wine on the table top is appropriate for any child old enough to hold a wine glass.

By the way, I am alcoholic, and have not personally enjoyed a glass in close to 15 years. And those like me are the only people who shouldn't enjoy a glass of wine at dinner.

 

[Kacey]

I have seen some studies and reports that learning to drink in moderation at a young age leads to a lower risk of alcoholism - the basic concept was that kids who are allowed to drink some at home learn their limits in a safe environment, and also are less likely to have the attitude that "I've already broken the rules with one drink, so I might as well go ahead and get drunk". I've seen other studies on this from a cultural perspective, that came out to the same concept; cultures that allow drinking in moderation have a much lower rate of alcoholism than cultures that ban it completely. A google search on the terms "alcoholism drinking home culture" turned up quite a few references, including this one:

Given overwhelming evidence for the primacy of sociocultural factors in determining both drinking patterns and their consequences, it is clear that ethnographic research findings on the social and cultural roles of alcohol may have important implications for policy-makers - particularly in areas such as Europe where economic and political ‘convergence’ could have significant impact on drinking-cultures and their associated lifestyles.

I think you're making the right choice here.

 

[jks9199]

A couple of suggestions...

In your own home, your own kids are your business. I'd strongly urge that the rule be that they can only have wine when it's family -- no friends. That way you avoid any issues where someone else's kids feel drinking is OK in your house.

Also -- I'd strongly suggest that the rule be no wine if they will be leaving the house, especially if they'll be driving. Underage possession and driving with more than trace amounts (.02 g/210 l breath or .02% BAC in VA) laws are pretty strict -- and strictly enforced.

Like I said -- it's your business in your home. Just keep it there!

 

[bushidomartialarts]

Very good points, JKS.

So let's take the exercise a step further.

Once my kids are in their teens, what about getting drunk at home perhaps once a year? Many of the same concepts apply.

I don't want my kid's first room spinning, throwing up drunk to be while he's surrounded by other kids going "RAAAAAWWWWWK ONNNNN! That dude's crazy! Chug! Chug!". I want it to be with me holding his hair over the toilet saying "There now, don't you feel sexy? Isn't this fun? Don't you want to do this in front of that girl you like? I bet she'll find this irresistable. Would you like another beer?"

I'm not saying this is the plan I'll actually take, but it's a logical extension of the previous question. Thoughts?

 

[mrhnau]

Wine is food. It should be enjoyed in the same manner as one who enjoys vegetables, starches and proteins.

No. You don't get arrested for having too many glasses of milk with your meal. You don't run into other drivers because you are inebriated with chicken legs. People don't get violent and beat their wives after eating too much broccoli. Alcohol is a drug. Like many drugs, if its abused, there are problems. Same thing with caffeine, nicotine, etc. Drug, not food.

I think wine on the table top is appropriate for any child old enough to hold a wine glass.

well, just don't let a cop see you or see evidence of what you have done. Your choice on how to raise your children...

By the way, I am alcoholic, and have not personally enjoyed a glass in close to 15 years. And those like me are the only people who shouldn't enjoy a glass of wine at dinner.

Props for that. I personally don't drink alcohol, but thats a personal decision. I have no problem with people that use it responsibly.

 

[JBrainard]

A doctor told me once that the brains of children under 15 or 16 years of age (can't remember which) are still developing rapidly and drinking alchohol before that age can impare that brain development.
As far as drinking casually in front of your kids, I think it's a great idea. My theory is that it shows them that it is normal, not rebellious. Of course, they will be drinking to excess when they get older (doesn't everybody?), just instill in them the fact that if they do so before the age above, they will be making themselves stupid(er).
Oh, and one more thing, if you cook with wine, doesn't most of the alcohol evaporate?

 

[JBrainard]

Pretty much on topic: Has anyone noticed that some babies LOVE beer. My son didn't really care for it, but you had to keep it out of reach of one of my nephews when he was about 2 years old. And no, his parents are not alcoholics.

 

[Andrew Green]

Same thing with caffeine, nicotine, etc. Drug, not food.

So should coffee, tea and Mountain Dew be age restricted as well?

Personally I think I would be more dangerous on the road after 4 cans of Red Bull then 4 glasses of wine, yet Red Bull is ok, and doesn't have a age restriction on purchasing it.

 

[CityChicken]

Food for thought: I agree that the 21 limit is silly, but it is the law. If you allow your kids to drink before they are legally able, what are you teaching them about obeying laws?

If they decide to drink before 21 outside they house, they have to know there are concequenses and punishment. You need to be honest and clear about your expectations. You also need to be honest with them about the effects of drinking and that it is a huge responsibility. One that could kill them if not respected.

 

[Andrew Green]

I don't know how things are down there, but in Canada parents can legally give there kids alcohal. Even in restraunts I believe.

What's it teaching them? That sometimes the gov't takes away your rights for no good reason, and part of your duty as a citizen is not to sit by and let them dictate how you live your personal life

 

[JBrainard]

I don't want my kid's first room spinning, throwing up drunk to be while he's surrounded by other kids going "RAAAAAWWWWWK ONNNNN! That dude's crazy! Chug! Chug!". I want it to be with me holding his hair over the toilet saying "There now, don't you feel sexy? Isn't this fun? Don't you want to do this in front of that girl you like? I bet she'll find this irresistable. Would you like another beer?"

My uncle (a reformed alcoholic) tried this with me. Didn't keep me from getting piss drunk with my friends every weekend when I was in college. Maybe I just don't learn What finally made my quit drinking to excess was when I finally drank so much that I blacked out. NO FUN. I have only drank to excess once since then, and that was on new years in a lesbian bar. When in Rome...

 

[mrhnau]

So should coffee, tea and Mountain Dew be age restricted as well?

Personally I think I would be more dangerous on the road after 4 cans of Red Bull then 4 glasses of wine, yet Red Bull is ok, and doesn't have a age restriction on purchasing it.

Personally, I think the laws are a bit screwy, but thats ok

Should caffeine be regulated? I think soceity regulates things it thinks are dangerous. Alcohol, in excess, causes problems for people other than the drinker (drunk driving, spousal/family abuse, liver disease). Nicotine causes problems for the user (health wis at least), and possibly for others (second hand smoke). With Caffeine, the damages done are a bit less transparent and not directly effecting other people (at least generally). Alot of places are starting to ban/not use transfat, which I think is a bit odd... They ban that, but not caffeine?

Heck, if I drink 50 glasses of water, I might need to pee so bad I'll speed However, I'm smart enough not to do that, and I hope most people would be smart enough to not drink 4 Red Bulls, however, I guess not everyone is

 

[bushidomartialarts]

Food for thought: I agree that the 21 limit is silly, but it is the law. If you allow your kids to drink before they are legally able, what are you teaching them about obeying laws?

If they decide to drink before 21 outside they house, they have to know there are concequenses and punishment. You need to be honest and clear about your expectations. You also need to be honest with them about the effects of drinking and that it is a huge responsibility. One that could kill them if not respected.

In my state, the law also says that parents can serve alcohol to their children in their homes. I intend to make that clear.

Though on the subject, I also intend to make it clear that I do not consider the law to the the final arbiter of right and wrong. I was raised to do the right thing, and if that happens to be legal so much the better.

 

[BrandiJo]

i dont know about amonts to give a child/teen but i wouldnt do anything hard... maybe a half a glass of wine with food before 16 and a beer 16 and above when they hit 20 or so let tehm get smashed a few times to learn how awful it turly is, i think its good that you are trying to do this respeonsibly. My dad is and has been a drunk all my life, and it taught me that there is no limit to drinking that its ok to get so drunk you are still dumb 3 days later and that as long as the police dont stop you your fine to drive, Dispite that i didnt drink till college and i got so freaking smashed before that i dont remember the night or much of the next day and when i came back around i thought it was cool cus this must be how my dad feels. Iv done it sense a few times, but my fienciee has pretty much taught me how to drink responsibly even tho i am still underage.
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