Double Wrists Control

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Kung Fu Wang

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I am wondering if I understand you correctly. When you say your wrist is grabbed from the outside in, do you mean a cross hand grab where the attacker grabs the opposite wrist in a more or less wrist to wrist configuration? What does that have to do with double wrist grabs?

How does the opponent jam your leading leg with his leading leg, strike to thigh, ankle, shin, knee?

Here is double wrists grabbing.


Here is the "leg jamming (shin bite)". You use your shin bone to bite into the "inside" of your opponent's leg and force his knee joint to bend outward.

 
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K-man

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Here is double wrists grabbing.


Here is the "leg jamming (shin bite)". You use your shin bone to bite into the "inside" of your opponent's leg and force his knee joint to bend outward.

We have similar moves to both of these. Simple reversal is one hand down and across, other hand up and across. Lift first hand and bring that arm back to break the grip and trap attacker's arm. Hit with free hand. This works off either side.
:asian:
 
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oftheherd1

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Thanks Kung Fu Wang. I wasn't quite sure. But to me it really seems like your example of double wrist grabs is more like a defense than an attack. I had assumed it was something like this

Hapkido Techniques : Hapkido Double Wrist Grab - YouTube

grabs that are being defended against.

As to the shin bite, that is interesting. I guess if you find yourself in a position where that would be good, it would be useful. Against a wall or something else that limits your ability to move.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Thanks Kung Fu Wang. I wasn't quite sure. But to me it really seems like your example of double wrist grabs is more like a defense than an attack. I had assumed it was something like this

Hapkido Techniques : Hapkido Double Wrist Grab - YouTube

grabs that are being defended against.

As to the shin bite, that is interesting. I guess if you find yourself in a position where that would be good, it would be useful. Against a wall or something else that limits your ability to move.

It's not defense. It's attack. The reason that you use "double wrists control" is to put a "fishing hook" on your opponent's body. In grappling, you will love your opponent to move in toward you. You will hate your opponent to move back away from you. With that "fishing hook" been established, when your opponent moves back, he will pull your body along with him. Also when you pull your opponent into you, you can borrow the counter force to pull you into your opponent. this way, you can close the gape much faster than just by using your own footwork.

There are many situations when you try to enter:

1. You move in and attack your opponent by surprise.
2. You use kick, punch to set up your clinch. When you move in like this, your opponent will know your intention when you throw the initial kick.
3. When your opponent attacks you, you wrap his punching arm, or catch his kicking leg and then enter.

The "double wrists control" is trying to attack by surprise, you have to "hide your intention" as much as possible. Move in close without letting your opponent to detect it. You then suddenly jump in and attack.

In you clip at 0.10, she tries to break the grips by turning against her opponent's 4 fingers. If her opponent has strong grip, it's very difficult to do so. This is why to turn against the thumb (1 finger) is important. If you want your opponent to turn and break your grips in certain way, not want your opponent to turn and break your grips in the other way, you will hold your opponent's wrist in a certain way.

 
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oftheherd1

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It's not defense. It's attack. The reason that you use "double wrists control" is to put a "fishing hook" on your opponent's body. In grappling, you will love your opponent to move in toward you. You will hate your opponent to move back away from you. With that "fishing hook" been established, when your opponent moves back, he will pull your body along with him. Also when you pull your opponent into you, you can borrow the counter force to pull you into your opponent. this way, you can close the gape much faster than just by using your own footwork.

There are many situations when you try to enter:

1. You move in and attack your opponent by surprise.
2. You use kick, punch to set up your clinch. When you move in like this, your opponent will know your intention when you throw the initial kick.
3. When your opponent attacks you, you wrap his punching arm, or catch his kicking leg and then enter.

The "double wrists control" is trying to attack by surprise, you have to "hide your intention" as much as possible. Move in close without letting your opponent to detect it. You then suddenly jump in and attack.

In you clip at 0.10, she tries to break the grips by turning against her opponent's 4 fingers. If her opponent has strong grip, it's very difficult to do so. This is why to turn against the thumb (1 finger) is important. If you want your opponent to turn and break your grips in certain way, not want your opponent to turn and break your grips in the other way, you will hold your opponent's wrist in a certain way.


Well, I guess the main problem then is that I misunderstood. I thought you were asking for defenses against wrist grabs, which as I am sure you know, there are many. I even took some of the responses to be suggesting defenses.

BTW, in the clip, I think if you watch closely, you may see the woman loosens her opponents grip first, then, she is not attacking the thumbs, but rather the wrists.
 
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Well, I guess the main problem then is that I misunderstood. I thought you were asking for defenses against wrist grabs, which as I am sure you know, there are many. I even took some of the responses to be suggesting defenses.

BTW, in the clip, I think if you watch closely, you may see the woman loosens her opponents grip first, then, she is not attacking the thumbs, but rather the wrists.
The attacker uses wrist garbs as offense. The person who is attacked will need to break the grip.

In training, if you want to develop your

- grip strength, you will turn your hand and against your opponent's 4 fingers.
- grabs breaking skill, you will turn your hand and against your opponent's 1 fingers, the thumb.

In my personal experience, if your opponent has monster grips, to break a grip against 4 fingers is very very difficult.
 

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I would do two movements as close to simultaneous as possible:
1. Use his leg jam attempt as an opportunity to counter with a knee/leg lock or sweep.
2. Rotate both hands towards my centerline & smack his hands together.
 

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The attacker uses wrist garbs as offense. The person who is attacked will need to break the grip.

In training, if you want to develop your

- grip strength, you will turn your hand and against your opponent's 4 fingers.
- grabs breaking skill, you will turn your hand and against your opponent's 1 fingers, the thumb.

In my personal experience, if your opponent has monster grips, to break a grip against 4 fingers is very very difficult.

What I have been thought with regards to firm wrist grips is to:

1) Not resist the grip at the point of contact i.e. the wrists, rather, use the entire waist and lower body to pull away from the grip. You will find that muscular control on a point that does not resist using muscles is very inefficient.

2) Use your opponents' firmness and muscular tension against himself and re-direct force through the point of contact causing him to be unbalanced, after which the initiative is in your hands and you can follow up with various counter attacks.

Of course these methods require a level of understanding of body mechanics that I have yet to attain, my teacher does it effortlessly though.
 

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What I have been thought with regards to firm wrist grips is to:

1) Not resist the grip at the point of contact i.e. the wrists, rather, use the entire waist and lower body to pull away from the grip. You will find that muscular control on a point that does not resist using muscles is very inefficient.

2) Use your opponents' firmness and muscular tension against himself and re-direct force through the point of contact causing him to be unbalanced, after which the initiative is in your hands and you can follow up with various counter attacks.

Of course these methods require a level of understanding of body mechanics that I have yet to attain, my teacher does it effortlessly though.

Nice sum up, for point number 1, we have the principle, first do it with your hand, if your hand can't do it, help it with your body (waist), if even with your body you still can't, then help it with your stance (lower body).
To make it work, you must max it first the first step then execute the second step.
As for the second, not just the body mechanics but also understand where the opponent force move, is it to push, to pull, to join, to separate, etc. Then we can redirect it easier.
It is just IMHO, because I still unable to read it my self.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk
 
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What I have been thought with regards to firm wrist grips is to:

1) Not resist the grip at the point of contact i.e. the wrists, rather, use the entire waist and lower body to pull away from the grip. You will find that muscular control on a point that does not resist using muscles is very inefficient.

2) Use your opponents' firmness and muscular tension against himself and re-direct force through the point of contact causing him to be unbalanced, after which the initiative is in your hands and you can follow up with various counter attacks.

Of course these methods require a level of understanding of body mechanics that I have yet to attain, my teacher does it effortlessly though.
I totally agree with you. There are so many ways to break the grips. The issue is not how to break the grips. The issue is when you are thinking about how to deal with your opponent's grips, he is already thinking about what he will do to you next. He is already one step ahead of you. The best solution is never to let your opponent to get wrist grip on you.

In the following clip, you can see how fast that your opponent will release his wrist control. The moment that you try to do something about it, he will be more than happy to let go his grip and move into something else.


So when I ask people's opinion about what will you do when your opponent already has your both wrist grips. Your best answer is not how to solve that problem, but how to prevent that problem from happening in the first place.
 
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The attacker uses wrist garbs as offense. The person who is attacked will need to break the grip.

In training, if you want to develop your

- grip strength, you will turn your hand and against your opponent's 4 fingers.
- grabs breaking skill, you will turn your hand and against your opponent's 1 fingers, the thumb.

In my personal experience, if your opponent has monster grips, to break a grip against 4 fingers is very very difficult.

That is true, it is very difficult. That's why I like to do something to help loosen that grip. :)
 

oftheherd1

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The attacker uses wrist garbs as offense. The person who is attacked will need to break the grip.

In training, if you want to develop your

- grip strength, you will turn your hand and against your opponent's 4 fingers.
- grabs breaking skill, you will turn your hand and against your opponent's 1 fingers, the thumb.

In my personal experience, if your opponent has monster grips, to break a grip against 4 fingers is very very difficult.

So when the opponent grabs your wrists in an attack mode, and you don't counter, what does the opponent do to continue the attack? I think wrist grabs are more control than what we normally think of as attack. As to opponent having monster grips, what difference does it make? Aren't you saying that as soon as you try to do something he will let go to do something else? Also, as I pointed out, in the clip I posted, there is no attempt to attack the fingers, but the wrist. One difference I see between your youtube above and the one I posted, is that the 'victim' makes no attempt move away from any 'attack' or grip, nor to use the whole body as leverage.

I totally agree with you. There are so many ways to break the grips. The issue is not how to break the grips. The issue is when you are thinking about how to deal with your opponent's grips, he is already thinking about what he will do to you next. He is already one step ahead of you. The best solution is never to let your opponent to get wrist grip on you.

In the following clip, you can see how fast that your opponent will release his wrist control. The moment that you try to do something about it, he will be more than happy to let go his grip and move into something else.


So when I ask people's opinion about what will you do when your opponent already has your both wrist grips. Your best answer is not how to solve that problem, but how to prevent that problem from happening in the first place.

While I agree with that, what happens if you are 'attacked' that way? You cannot then ask for a mulligan or rewind to prevent it can you? So perhaps you should be showing how to prevent such attacks in the first place, not what to do after the attack?

I'm not trying to be confrontational. However, to me, what you say seems somewhat contradictory. You should always try to prevent attacks first, but that isn't the way you started the thread. When people try to show defenses against grabs, suddenly is seems they are attacks and you are already behind the 8-ball with no defense shown from your point of view. If I misunderstand, please correct me.
 
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Sorry that "monster grip" may be a distraction for this discussion.

May be I didn't make myself clear in my 1st post. How to break the grip is not important. We all know that all grips can be broken. But after you have broken your opponent's grips, how to prevent your opponent from coming in closer is much more interested discussion.
 
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oftheherd1

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Sorry that "monster grip" may be a distraction for this discussion.

May be I didn't make myself clear in my 1st post. How to break the grip is not important. We all know that all grips can be broken. But after you have broken your opponent's grips, how to prevent your opponent from coming in closer is much more interested discussion.

I don't know about your art. In the Hapkido I learned, it isn't uncommon for us to move into an attack, especially of strikes or kicks. In grappling, normally we combine breaking the grip with an immediate counter attack of some kind. It may be a strike, breaking a joint, or a throw. It will be all one continuous movement. Before you ask, yes, we normally try to turn our attacker's body in such a way he cannot strike, or cause so much pain his reflexes will cause him to stop or at least slow down, by which time we will have control of him.
 

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I totally agree with you. There are so many ways to break the grips. The issue is not how to break the grips. The issue is when you are thinking about how to deal with your opponent's grips, he is already thinking about what he will do to you next. He is already one step ahead of you. The best solution is never to let your opponent to get wrist grip on you.

In the following clip, you can see how fast that your opponent will release his wrist control. The moment that you try to do something about it, he will be more than happy to let go his grip and move into something else.


So when I ask people's opinion about what will you do when your opponent already has your both wrist grips. Your best answer is not how to solve that problem, but how to prevent that problem from happening in the first place.

Preventing is a case of having tight to your body tyrannosaurus arms. Even if they get them there is less they can do with them.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Preventing is a case of having tight to your body tyrannosaurus arms. Even if they get them there is less they can do with them.
Your suggestion will work for a wrestler that all he cares about is to move his body to be close to his opponent's body, the wrapping game then start after that.

wrestling2z.jpg


When a striker punches, his arm will move away from his body.

boxing_punch1.jpg
 

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Your suggestion will work for a wrestler that all he cares about is to move his body to be close to his opponent's body, the wrapping game then start after that.

wrestling2z.jpg


When a striker punches, his arm will move away from his body.

boxing_punch1.jpg

Of course it will, you have to move to fight. That's the art: choosing when to move, and how. OODA loop, anyone? There's no harm in having a default position between punches that minimises risk, though.

You can't really present a static momentary snapshot of a situation, ask people what they would do against it, and then shoot down everything people suggest with the next dynamic step after that snapshot. It's an endless process, and whatever next step you choose, there's another that can follow and negate it. That's the nature of fighting: ebb and flow. At best, any response to any movement from the opponent will give you a temporary position of advantage on which you must capitalise to win.

So for every response, reversal, technique and strategy that's been suggested so far, let's assume that instead of standing around waiting for the opponent to make their next move we seize the initiative and don't give them a chance to recover.



Gnarlie
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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shoot down everything people suggest with the next dynamic step after that snapshot.
You are absolute right! Since I started this thread and my purpose is to collect as many opinions as possible, I really should not add any more of my personal opinions into people's suggestion. I should just put myself in "listen only" mode. Thanks for reminding me on this.
 
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