Domestic Assault in Public: A Case Study

[CB Jones]

What if the person doing the attacking was one of your co-workers? Would you help the other guy?

I would hope so.

 

[Urban Trekker]

Thats not even accounting if its not the males fault to begin with. Being beligerant and victim are two diffrent things.

To put myself in the boyfriend's shoes in the case of him defending himself from his girlfriend, I'd have to consider my geographic location. My understanding is that if you're up north - like New York or Boston - the "hero complex" is less of a thing up there. I'd probably feel more free to defend myself from a woman in places like that.

Here in Virginia, I'd probably let her get a few licks in to make sure everybody else sees it before I do anything.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I lived in an area where people got shot for not minding their own business. It was the norm to scan for weapons. Her life is not worth my life. In reality, I could get shot and she could still decide to stay with the abuser after my death. Police have advantages that everyday citizens don't have when dealing with situations like that.

I also understand that there are other options that I can use that doesn't get me directly in a confrontation. I was willing to take more risks when I was single, but I can be so carefree with my life when others depend on my well being. I have to be more responsible with my decisions because it won't just be me who suffers if I die.

The guy could have gotten the license plate and called the police and he would still be alive.

 

[Buka]

No worries, fellas, if your sister, aunt, cousin, daughters, whatever is getting assaulted, some of us are going in. Always have, always will. As for the man committing the assault, F him.

As for Boston and the hero complex thing, I don’t quite know what that means….and that’s my home town. We’d just take the body and dump it in what used to be the Quincy Quarries. Man, if that place could talk.

We don’t watch women get beat up. Nope.

 

[drop bear]

So you would say that preventing her from getting a black eye would be worth your life?

Definitely worth the risk. Which isn't that high.

And part of the reason for that is I think it creates a better society if people are more mindful of others than themselves sometimes.

I like that I am of a culture where people stop and help.

So speaking of risk. Is a society that acts to prevent these sorts of things inherently safer than one that is more concerned with their own self interest?

Mabye ignoring that lady getting a black eye. Means you are actually increasing risk to yourself on a grander scale.

 

[Steve]

I would hope so.

I appreciate this, and would hope so, too. I think confidence in this has taken some hits over the last few years. Blue wall/blue code etc.

 

[Steve]

To the original question, I have intervened in similar situations in the past, and would do it again. Never run into this situation, but I've run into an adult beating a child more than once. I've also broken windows out of cars twice, once to save a child and once to save a dog, who were left in the heat. I've stepped in dozens of times when a member of the public was verbally assaulting a co-worker or employee of mine.

Reading the article, it seems like the guy tried to intervene in a reasonable manner, didn't just jump in and attack the guy. He just had the bad luck of running into a genuine lunatic. You just can't account for that kind of crazy.

 

[Urban Trekker]

Definitely worth the risk. Which isn't that high.

The man who felt the same way is now dead.

And part of the reason for that is I think it creates a better society if people are more mindful of others than themselves sometimes.

I like that I am of a culture where people stop and help.

Darwinism at work, I suppose.

So speaking of risk. Is a society that acts to prevent these sorts of things inherently safer than one that is more concerned with their own self interest?

No. Are other men going to stop or continue beating their girlfriends or wives because of what you did or didn't do in the parking lot? Of course not.

Mabye ignoring that lady getting a black eye. Means you are actually increasing risk to yourself on a grander scale.

Domestic violence is older than the homo sapiens species itself, and it will continue long after we've evolved into something else. And there's no decision you can make when witnessing it that's going to change that.

 

[Steve]

The man who felt the same way is now dead.


Darwinism at work, I suppose.


No. Are other men going to stop or continue beating their girlfriends or wives because of what you did or didn't do in the parking lot? Of course not.


Domestic violence is older than the homo sapiens species itself, and it will continue long after we've evolved into something else. And there's no decision you can make when witnessing it that's going to change that.

The problem is that you're making a retrospective determination here. Simply put, you're squaring away the right/wrong determination based on the outcome. That's not how morality and ethics works, though. You can't make a decision in the moment based on unintended or unforeseeable consequences that haven't occurred yet.

If you think about what you're advocating here, it's living a life based on trying to entirely eliminate any personal risk. You're saying, "I shouldn't try to help someone else, if there is any personal risk involved." That's cowardice.

 

[drop bear]

The man who felt the same way is now dead.


Darwinism at work, I suppose.


No. Are other men going to stop or continue beating their girlfriends or wives because of what you did or didn't do in the parking lot? Of course not.


Domestic violence is older than the homo sapiens species itself, and it will continue long after we've evolved into something else. And there's no decision you can make when witnessing it that's going to change that.

They will more like stop if they think I am going to kick their heads in if I catch them.

The thing is I am sure I can find an incident where bystanders watched an assault that killed that person. I could also find a case study where someone died falling off a ladder.

You can't be too strongly attached to one incident.

Here is mine by the way.

No Cookies | The Courier Mail

No Cookies

www.couriermail.com.au

Otherwise here is an incident where nobody even calls the police.

Murder of Kitty Genovese - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Urban Trekker]

No worries, fellas, if your sister, aunt, cousin, daughters, whatever is getting assaulted, some of us are going in. Always have, always will. As for the man committing the assault, F him.

As for Boston and the hero complex thing, I don’t quite know what that means….and that’s my home town. We’d just take the body and dump it in what used to be the Quincy Quarries. Man, if that place could talk.

We don’t watch women get beat up. Nope.

You know what the interesting thing is? Around here, when you hear stories of a poor soul that got jumped by the boyfriend and the girlfriend that he was trying to protect from him, it's usually a military guy that's from somewhere out in the rural Midwest. Something about areas with more conservative cultures fosters that hero complex.

 

[JowGaWolf]

No worries, fellas, if your sister, aunt, cousin, daughters, whatever is getting assaulted, some of us are going in.

I would want someone to think it through before trying to rescue my wife. I rather have someone get good pictures of a license plate and the attacker. Call the police and maybe stall the attacker if possible. Any time spent talking to the attacker is a second not spent on my wife or daughter being beaten.

I would be more upset if you jump in get, get shot, die, and the attacker gets away. Because now the attacker isn't just thinking about punching his victim he's now thinking about getting rid of the witness. Because you jumped in without getting important information, no the police don't have much to go on with trying to find my daughter and the attacker.

I don't think anyone is saying " don't help." Just be smart about it if you do decide to help. Use your mind read the situation and make the best choice.

You can jump in to save a woman, but what happens to her after you beat up her boyfriend. Maybe they live together. Are you going to be there the next day to save her when the boyfriend beats her up for not helping him fight you.

I think about these things because I've had to deal with these things. Just some food for thought. Choose an option that doesn't get you killed or make things worse.

 

[Urban Trekker]

The problem is that you're making a retrospective determination here. Simply put, you're squaring away the right/wrong determination based on the outcome. That's not how morality and ethics works, though. You can't make a decision in the moment based on unintended or unforeseeable consequences that haven't occurred yet.

If you think about what you're advocating here, it's living a life based on trying to entirely eliminate any personal risk. You're saying, "I shouldn't try to help someone else, if there is any personal risk involved." That's cowardice.

Your assuming that I'm making a retrospective determination because the article says that the man was killed. That's not the case.

I stated in the OP that if a man does something in public that he knows good and well will attract the attention of people that will physically stop him, there's a strong possibility that he's armed.

Cowardice is when you refuse to take a risk where the desired outcome is equal to or greater than that risk. When the desired outcome is less than the risk, and you take that risk anyway, it's stupidity.

 

[Urban Trekker]

I would want someone to think it through before trying to rescue my wife. I rather have someone get good pictures of a license plate and the attacker. Call the police and maybe stall the attacker if possible. Any time spent talking to the attacker is a second not spent on my wife or daughter being beaten.

Exactly. If my wife or daughter was getting smacked around in the parking lot, they're still coming home tonight. And we can bring the attacker to justice.

I don't want "the good guy" to die over it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

They will more like stop if they think I am going to kick their heads in if I catch them.

He will stop while you are there but what happens when you leave. Are you going to take her with you? Are you going to keep him from going to her place. Abusers understand that you may have helped today, but you won't be there tomorrow. You also won't be on the call when he starts to do his fake apologies.

You know what the interesting thing is? Around here, when you hear stories of a poor soul that got jumped by the boyfriend and the girlfriend that he was trying to protect from him,

I've see this happen before. I personally experienced the verbal version of this. One with a female friend and once with my sister in law before I got married.

I promised her boyfriend that I would make a special trip to Australia to fix it, if necessary. Then I told him it would be a shame if the cops find out that his friend was growing drugs on his farm. Lol. I think that's what made him stop. Lol.

 

[Urban Trekker]

They will more like stop if they think I am going to kick their heads in if I catch them.

Why are you assuming that people fear you? Even if, and especially if, they're obviously physically weaker than you, and they're still doing in front you... you've got to wonder why. You know, maybe that got that "steel courage" in their pocket.

The thing is I am sure I can find an incident where bystanders watched an assault that killed that person. I could also find a case study where someone died falling off a ladder.

You can't be too strongly attached to one incident.

Maybe you could, but how would that refute what I'm saying?

Here is mine by the way.

No Cookies | The Courier Mail

No Cookies

www.couriermail.com.au

I'm not able to open that article. It's saying I have to be subscribed.

Otherwise here is an incident where nobody even calls the police.

Murder of Kitty Genovese - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Eh, this ties into more about what I was saying about the way things go up north. Furthermore, New York being what it was from the 60's to the 80's, they could have assumed that this guy was a gang member and feared retaliation.

That fear really isn't a thing where I live. Yes, they have gangs here, but they don't control a damn thing. Gang members get shot by cashiers at stores they were trying to rob all the time here, and those cashiers can go to work the next day with absolutely zero worries.

 

[drop bear]

Maybe you could, but how would that refute what I'm saying?

Ok. Let's go this way. This case study is where a person fell off a ladder and dies.

Man dies after fall from ladder | WorkSafe Victoria

A subcontractor has died after falling from a ladder at a residential construction site at Rutherglen, in Victoria’s north-east.

www.worksafe.vic.gov.au

Why do people use ladders when there is the risk of death? People are foolish to use ladders.

 

[Steve]

You know what the interesting thing is? Around here, when you hear stories of a poor soul that got jumped by the boyfriend and the girlfriend that he was trying to protect from him, it's usually a military guy that's from somewhere out in the rural Midwest. Something about areas with more conservative cultures fosters that hero complex.

Seattle is pretty liberal. Took less than a minute to find a relatively recent example of a guy intervening to help someone else: Caught on Video: Good Samaritan saves woman from assault, fire at Ballard homeless camp

 

[Urban Trekker]

Ok. Let's go this way. This case study is where a person fell off a ladder and dies.

Man dies after fall from ladder | WorkSafe Victoria

A subcontractor has died after falling from a ladder at a residential construction site at Rutherglen, in Victoria’s north-east.

www.worksafe.vic.gov.au

Why do people use ladders when there is the risk of death? People are foolish to use ladders.

What doesn't help is that this is reporting an incident before the investigation was complete. What I tried to look for was whether or nor there were certain safety precautions that he wasn't following. For example, is the ladder supposed to be positioned and secured a certain way? Was he supposed to be wearing a harness?

If there were certain safety procedures and precautions that he failed to follow, then that would make him foolish.

 

[drop bear]

What doesn't help is that this is reporting an incident before the investigation was complete. What I tried to look for was whether or nor there were certain safety precautions that he wasn't following. For example, is the ladder supposed to be positioned and secured a certain way? Was he supposed to be wearing a harness?

If there were certain safety procedures and precautions that he failed to follow, then that would make him foolish.

I don't think it matters. If I wanted to look for risk in an activity I could find it. I could then argue that risk makes the person who engaged in that activity foolish.