Does taekwondo needs cross-training to complete it

cmassman

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I think TKD is a great art, but complete is a pretty big word. I believe by cross training you and pick up other things from different arts, which has given be a better appreciation of TKD
 

chrispillertkd

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I suggest people post their curriculum up to first dan. Most of us have rank requirements in electronic form. Just copy and paste that bad boy and then we can have hopefully a meaningful discussion.

First dan is a pretty arbitrary place to draw a line, IMHO, and would rather exclude much if not most of what any martial art contains. At least it would in the Taekwon-Do I've learned. I'm a V dan and still learning new stuff. I believe my instructor has a syllabus up to VI dan.

Pax,

Chris
 

dancingalone

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First dan is a pretty arbitrary place to draw a line, IMHO, and would rather exclude much if not most of what any martial art contains. At least it would in the Taekwon-Do I've learned. I'm a V dan and still learning new stuff. I believe my instructor has a syllabus up to VI dan.

Pax,

Chris

It is an arbitrary demarcation. That said, I've got to question any curriculum that waits until 3rd dan and up to introduce close range combat material. Thoughts?
 

Quarterstaff

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Are we talking WTF or ITF?

Perhaps it is a big assumption to think that you can complete a martial art system like Taekwon-Do?
 

dancingalone

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Are we talking WTF or ITF?

Perhaps it is a big assumption to think that you can complete a martial art system like Taekwon-Do?

Post your curriculum if you don't mind then. Afterwards we'll all have a better idea why you believe Taekwon-Do is too expansive to complete.

I imagine the thread is about any kind of TKD.
 

dortiz

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"Perhaps it is a big assumption to think that you can complete a martial art system like Taekwon-Do? "

Both General Choi (ITF) and the Kukkiwon took the time to document the arts so it seems in that regards it has some reasonable definitions of what it encompasses.
 

Quarterstaff

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Post your curriculum if you don't mind then. Afterwards we'll all have a better idea why you believe Taekwon-Do is too expansive to complete.

I imagine the thread is about any kind of TKD.

The ITF encyclopedia is 15 volumes long and would take weeks to read and as such is a little big to post. :)

Don't people say that Martial arts is about the journey not the destination?
 

dancingalone

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The ITF encyclopedia is 15 volumes long and would take weeks to read and as such is a little big to post. :)

Oh you're ITF then. I expect Mr. Weiss will find a way to post his info up then as he mentioned above.

Don't people say that Martial arts is about the journey not the destination?

Yes, many people say something like that. I would merely suggest the destination is awfully important when I am making my daily commute to work. The same is true in martial arts. Just what have we been practicing all this time if it is to not gain fighting skills?

Too much "Do" makes Does out of all of us. Respectfully said.
 

dortiz

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"The ITF encyclopedia is 15 volumes long and would take weeks to read"

A. I hope if someone studies the art they can take the time needed to read it.
B. A syllabus is not the same as the broken down text on how to do every part of the art. Its more like the Table of contents from the 15 books.
 

FearlessFreep

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OK, this may sounds weird but, in a lot of ways, art or system may not matter much.

Here's what I mean. We've been doing a drill called "shark bait" a lot recently. That's one person in the middle and everyone else around attacking in turn. Sometimes you end up with several attackers at once. It's very unrehearsed and not a little bit scary. The attacks very from grabs to punches to chokes to holds. The level of attack depends on the level of the defender, but it's fairly intense.

What I've noticed is that, while some students have better techniques, stronger, smoother, faster. The first level of defense is really a mindset. The ability to respond, to handle the adrenaline and the fight-or-flight instinct. The refusal to give up, to go down. This seems to transcend what technique is used or even sometimes well good the technique is executed.

So above and beyond the particular techniques or the art they are from, there is the need to develop a mindset to never give up, don't freeze up, move fast, hit hard, keep moving, keep hitting, until you are safe. If you train for that mindset, and train in a way that hones and reinforces that mindset, then I think whatever your techniques, they will serve you well, as long as they are trained to be hard, smooth and effective (my instructor's been saying "smooth is the new fast" : )

Not to belie the importance of technique, but technique, your art, will not be complete if you do not train to use it when needed, and that's first and foremost in the mind and the will to live

Caveat: I do not train Tae Kwon Do anymore (although I do train using techniques learned from Tae Kwon Do. Even when I trained Tae Kwon Do, it had influences from Hapkido and others, so in many ways I really don't know what real Tae Kwon Do is, beyond poomse and sparring rules I'm not an instructor
 

dortiz

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Great drill.

look, both in sport or Sd TKD the entire idea is to drill techniques so that you respond from a muscle memory position. Thats what forms are trying to teach you. How to turn right or left and transition to an attack or defense.

This drill is one good way to make sure if your techniques are ingrained well enough. Lower belts may panic or use one or two techniques while higher belts should flow more and therefore become more comfortable to transition to different things.
 

ralphmcpherson

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In my opinion no art is 100% 'complete' , I do believe though, that tkd taught the traditional old school way is more than enough for someone to be able to defend themself on the "street".
 

chrispillertkd

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It is an arbitrary demarcation. That said, I've got to question any curriculum that waits until 3rd dan and up to introduce close range combat material. Thoughts?

What do you mean by "close range combat material"? Use of knee and elbow strikes? Close range punching and striking (upset punches, upwards punches, crescent punches, angle punches, turning punches, etc.) Grabbing? Sweeping and throwing? Punches, strikes and kicks executed from a prone position (often as a counter attack after being thrown)? Grappling?

Apart from grappling Taekwon-Do has quite a number of those techniques. So if your definition of "complete" means having a major ground game, then no TKD isn't a complete art.

FWIW, I don't know of any instrcutor who would wait until 3rd dan to introduce any of those elements to his students. (3rd dan is fairly is still considered a novice black belt by the ITF, as oppsed to 4th-6th dan who are experts and 7th-9th who are masters.) Do you know of someone who doesn't introduce close range techniques until this rank, since you mentioned it? That would be weird. Is this a common place to introduce such techniques by the instructors you know?

Also, if you realize that 1st dan is an arbitrarty line of demarcation you should know that by asking for only requirements up to that rank will probably not give an accurate portrait of any art.

Pax,

Chris
 

dancingalone

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Also, if you realize that 1st dan is an arbitrarty line of demarcation you should know that by asking for only requirements up to that rank will probably not give an accurate portrait of any art.
Chris

Really? By 1st dan, one should have been well-acquainted with the fighting concepts of the system. One can certainly learn more techniques into the black belt ranks, but it should all build on the philosophies that should have been taught from day one.

There's a reason after that many styles have koans or sayings that condense their style into a few sentences. "From within, without." Or "Swift to rise, quick to rest."

If you're saying there are many more requirements in ITF TKD after 1st dan that dramatically transmute the art, I'd be less than impressed as someone tenured in martial arts. It is of course your system however.

What do you mean by "close range combat material"? Use of knee and elbow strikes? Close range punching and striking (upset punches, upwards punches, crescent punches, angle punches, turning punches, etc.) Grabbing? Sweeping and throwing? Punches, strikes and kicks executed from a prone position (often as a counter attack after being thrown)? Grappling?

....

FWIW, I don't know of any instrcutor who would wait until 3rd dan to introduce any of those elements to his students. (3rd dan is fairly is still considered a novice black belt by the ITF, as oppsed to 4th-6th dan who are experts and 7th-9th who are masters.) Do you know of someone who doesn't introduce close range techniques until this rank, since you mentioned it? That would be weird. Is this a common place to introduce such techniques by the instructors you know?

It could be all of those things. This topic is fairly broad after all about whether cross-training is needed to complete TKD.

And no, I should have added 'hypothetical' in front of my remark about 3rd dans. It would be pretty nutty to wait until 3rd dan to introduce clearly some fundamental and necessary techniques.

By the way, that's pretty incredible to me that you in the ITF consider a 3rd a novice black belt. Are high dan ranks so common then?

In Goju-ryu karate, I am a yondan (4th) and I have learned all the material in my system. As I progress upwards in rank, it's just a matter of refining what I have been given already as well as service to the art.

When I studied TKD and I attained 2nd dan in the old Jhoon Rhee system, it was understood that I pretty much had everything under my belt too. Other than a few new hyung there wasn't anything else to learn, and given the lack of form application work, it's not like it was any big deal to memorize a handful of new patterns.
 

Cirdan

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By the way, that's pretty incredible to me that you in the ITF consider a 3rd a novice black belt. Are high dan ranks so common then?

In Goju-ryu karate, I am a yondan (4th) and I have learned all the material in my system. As I progress upwards in rank, it's just a matter of refining what I have been given already as well as service to the art.

It seems to me this difference between Karate and TKD is getting more pronounced. In many places TKD 4th dans are treated like Karate 1st dans with respect to how far they have progressed. Low ranking BBs are even not alowed to teach without supervision. At 3rd to 5th dan a karateka in a traditional dojo will typically know the whole system.
 

Earl Weiss

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Oh you're ITF then. I expect Mr. Weiss will find a way to post his info up then as he mentioned above.


.

My color belt curriculum is 10 pages long, one for each gup level. I think cutting and pasting would be to lengthy for a board like this and the formatting would probably be messed up. Unlike the encyclopedia, it does not contain technical parameters for techniques and in some portions it refers to other printed material such as for required knowledge and Board Breaking.
 

Earl Weiss

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By the way, that's pretty incredible to me that you in the ITF consider a 3rd a novice black belt. Are high dan ranks so common then?

In Goju-ryu karate, I am a yondan (4th) and I have learned all the material in my system. As I progress upwards in rank, it's just a matter of refining what I have been given already as well as service to the art.

When I studied TKD and I attained 2nd dan in the old Jhoon Rhee system, it was understood that I pretty much had everything under my belt too. Other than a few new hyung there wasn't anything else to learn, and given the lack of form application work, it's not like it was any big deal to memorize a handful of new patterns.

Hmm, is it more icredible to use the term novice, than those that use the term "Master " when the entire syllabus has not been learned?

Aside form refining your material after 4th Dan do you not continue to have greater insight into the techniques?

I am not sure what you learned under Jhoon Rhee, since he has had different systems including Chang Hon, but a clue to what was missing from how he taught that system was the fact that it only had 20 of the 24 patterns. Kind of like learning the alphabet and leaving out 4 letters.
 

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