Does Hapkido have a technical standard?

[Daniel Sullivan]

So since there is not standard to compare to as correct Hapkido, and there is no combat contest to compare who develops the best fighters, it seems that I would simply pick a teacher that impressed me the most, that I felt was a good fit for me and that there is no way of ever knowing how good one Hapkido teacher, or student is compared to another. If I were recommended to a specific teacher, it would simply be based on the opinion of the recommender, not on any type of fact of ability, or achievement? So it is really a person's personal taste?

Well, you'd have to look at the standard within the association/federation. If the instructor is unaffiliated, then he got his training from somewhere. Korean striking art + hapkido culled joint locks is not in any way, shape or form hapkido. If the instructor is actually teaching hapkido, he should be happy to share his lineage. If you go back far enough in his or her lineage, then their hapkido comes from an established line, which will then give you some basis for comparison.

Hapkido is a young art, so many of the pioneers are still alive and practicing. You certainly are familiar with that within the context of taekwondo. It isn't a big mystery as to who learned from who and where they fit in in the grand scheme of hapkido. If they cannot trace their line back to Choi Dojunim, then it probably isn't hapkido.

There are other factors in school recommendations that are more related to the quality of the school owner, whether or not they might be a good fit for a specific customer, and less to what art they are teaching.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Hapkido, regardless of which federation or association, has a common body of material. There are some differences from federation to federation, but there is far more overlap than difference. Hapkido's techniques are designed around the hwu, won, and yu principles; harmony, circular, and flowing (there is another thread on this subject going). Hapkido is a soft art, which makes it very different from taekwondo or karate.

Interestingly, I have a friend who lives in Korea and is a 5th dan in Hapkido who has told me on more than one occasion he's never heard those three principles while training in Korea. He said he first heard about them from westerners.

Other organizations include the International Hapkido Federation (GM Myung Jae Nam) and the World Hapkido Association (GM Jung Tae). There are numerous other federations and associations, as well as unaffiliated schools.

GM Jung Tae is pretty awesome. I don't know how his Hapkido compares to others but I went to a seminar he put on and he was very impressive.

I have been trained by IHF lineage instructors and am also a member of the World Hapkido Association.

Do both the IHF and WHA specifically teach the principles of harmony, circular, and flowing?

Pax,

Chris

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Interestingly, I have a friend who lives in Korea and is a 5th dan in Hapkido who has told me on more than one occasion he's never heard those three principles while training in Korea. He said he first heard about them from westerners.

The principles are implicit, but I suspect that students in Korea simply learned the art while westerners probably wanted details of what made hapkido hapkido and not karate.

GM Jung Tae is pretty awesome. I don't know how his Hapkido compares to others but I went to a seminar he put on and he was very impressive.

I had planned to attend a seminar last year, but was unable to. I am very glad to hear that you liked it. I have a DVD of him demonstrating the full curriculum and I thought that what he presents was in line with what I had learned. There were some stylistic differences; not a better/worse, but just different ways to approach the same techniques.

Do both the IHF and WHA specifically teach the principles of harmony, circular, and flowing?

My instructors who were IHF or IHF descended did. I have never heard them mentioned by anyone in conversation or in any of the material that I have, but the principles are definitely present in the way that the techniques are performed.

 

[American HKD]

Those principles harmony, circular, and flowing do not seem to be spoken about in the original teachings of GM Choi, Yong Sool or Ji Han Jae. The main HKD principles are off balancing which is simply Push/Pull.

So if one is pushed he pulls and if pulled you push. Those movements can be straight or circular in nature and HKD reflects this in its techniques.

The water principle etc. are kind of strange IMO.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I wonder if its more of an IHF theme.

 

[American HKD]

I wonder if its more of an IHF theme.

Maybe?

I think it came about later in HKD and the off shoots of HKD systems as they developed. You do not hear those ideas in Japanese Daito Ryu, AKD or Jujitsu.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I won't speak about DRAJJ, but the principles certainly seem to be there in hapkido. Whether the terms were grafted on at a later point is another question.

 

[oftheherd1]

..

So if one is pushed he pulls and if pulled you push.
...

And as I learned it, often if you want to push, you pull slightly first, or if you want to pull, you push slightly. If you want to go right, go left slightly first, and same for right. By slightly, I mean just enough to get your opponent to react, then use your opponent's instinctive counter movement to aid you in making your move. Perhaps you meant that as well sir?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Legitimate hapkido can trace its roots back to a fairly small number of people, and while there are some differences between them, there is enough common technical content to tie them together.

Is there? What is 'legitimate' Hapkido? Is it the one with certain kicks added in? Is it the Hapkido of another original student of Choi? Is it ONLY what Choi taught and nothing else? Reading different interviews of seniors it seems apparent that this is a point of debate amoungst them.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Is there?

Yes, there is.

Hapkido is not homogeneous the way that taekwondo, kendo, or judo, but yes, there is a common set of techniques and a common approach that allow for a technical standard, albeit a somewhat loose one.

Each federation/association/org within the art has a more defined technical standard. It really isn't all that different from other martial arts.

Taekwondo, for example, has a number of organizations, each of which maintain their own technical standard, but all of which have enough similarity that they are still taekwondo.

Also, each of those organizations can trace their lineage back to the five original kwans.

What is 'legitimate' Hapkido? Is it the one with certain kicks added in? Is it the Hapkido of another original student of Choi? Is it ONLY what Choi taught and nothing else? Reading different interviews of seniors it seems apparent that this is a point of debate amoungst them.

Again, legitimate hapkido can trace its roots back to a fairly small number of people. And by legitimate, I mean hapkido that traces its line back to Choi Dojunim. If seniors who can do this wish to debate among themselves, it is their time to waste splitting hairs.

For the purposes of this discussions, and for non-hapkidoin, tracing it back to Choi Dojunim is the most fair handed and inclusive way that I can put it.

Also, by 'legitimate,' I mean actually learning hapkido. Striking arts with HKD culled joint locks grafted onto it, even if taught by someone who meets the above criteria is not hapkido, legitimate or otherwise. It may be very effective and a lot of fun, but it isn't hapkido.

ITF taekwondo apparently has HKD culled hoshinsul, which was received from a hapkido master (I'm sorry, but I cannot recall who it was). The techniques were integrated into the system, and the system is taekwondo, not hapkido.

Also, I speak from personal experience in this regard, having practiced TKD with HKD joint locks and then later hapkido. Definitely different. Not a greater/lesser kind of difference; simply different.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

So if one is pushed he pulls and if pulled you push. Those movements can be straight or circular in nature and HKD reflects this in its techniques.

The water principle etc. are kind of strange IMO.

Not all that strange. What you describe above is the principle of harmonizing or blending; i'm pulled, so I push, thus harmonizing my own motion with that of my opponent.

I don't think the issue is whether or not those terms were used, but whether or not those terms describe the practice of the art, which in my opinion, they do.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Sounds good Daniel. That was a well thought out post that I can agree with you on.

 

[American HKD]

Not all that strange. What you describe above is the principle of harmonizing or blending; i'm pulled, so I push, thus harmonizing my own motion with that of my opponent.

I don't think the issue is whether or not those terms were used, but whether or not those terms describe the practice of the art, which in my opinion, they do.

Sure is.

I wanted to keep that very thought on ice because, as you realized push/pull says it all. Adding all the flowery stuff in nice but is non-essential for understanding the non-resistance theory of HKD. All a student needs to understand is the essence and how to apply it.

Keep it real, real simple.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Sure is.

I wanted to keep that very thought on ice because, as you realized push/pull says it all. Adding all the flowery stuff in nice but is non-essential for understanding the non-resistance theory of HKD. All a student needs to understand is the essence and how to apply it.

Keep it real, real simple.

I agree. I don't get into complexities with students; I just teach them techniques and how to apply them.

But I'm not teaching students; I'm engaging in a technical discussion with knowledgeable people in the same field. Those terms are frequently used in internet discussions, as they encapsulate a lot of information in a fairly brief manner.

 

[American HKD]

I agree. I don't get into complexities with students; I just teach them techniques and how to apply them.

But I'm not teaching students; I'm engaging in a technical discussion with knowledgeable people in the same field. Those terms are frequently used in internet discussions, as they encapsulate a lot of information in a fairly brief manner.

Speaking for myself I never was taught by my teachers anything more then push/pull theory. I only read about Yu, Hwa, Won on the net or in books. Also the water principle people talk about in HKD, it does not seem to actualy exist.

Kool Sul Won may have dreamed up these flowery philosophies, after reading the following you may notice push/pull is the basis for all three concepts.

The foundation of Kuk Sool Won™ training is based on the theory of YU-WON-HWA.From the theory of YU (flowing, as in water), we learn to "go with the flow." When we are pushed, we pull; when we are pulled, we push. Also, water symbolizes many things, not the least of which are adaptability, softness and at the same time, great force.
The theory of WON (circle) acknowledges that every person has his or her own circle of "private space." Attacks which invade this space should be redirected with flowing and circular defensive motions. This circle should be thought of as least resistance; always rolling (active), and therefore, difficult to hold or grasp.
Finally, the theory of HWA (harmony) represents the unity of mind and body. In practice, this is accomplished through repetition. Harmony is achieved within oneself, through a state of "emptiness" that recognizes "+" (yang) and "-" (um) are part of one; each is there to allow the other to exist, and cannot exist if the other part is not there.
The ramification of the theory of YOU-WON-HWA is that as flowing water seeks a harmonious state with its environment, constantly adapting to external changes, we should also seek to maintain harmony within our inner circle so that all trespassers in this space are redirected in direct proportion to the force they introduce.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Speaking for myself I never was taught by my teachers anything more then push/pull theory. I only read about Yu, Hwa, Won on the net or in books. Also the water principle people talk about in HKD, it does not seem to actualy exist.

I've seen 'water' concepts taught by more than one instructor in more than one art. I would say that the principle is there, but also that the principle can be expressed via different terminology, depending upon who you talk to.

Kool Sul Won may have dreamed up these flowery philosophies, after reading the following you may notice push/pull is the basis for all three concepts.

The foundation of Kuk Sool Won™ training is based on the theory of YU-WON-HWA.From the theory of YU (flowing, as in water), we learn to "go with the flow." When we are pushed, we pull; when we are pulled, we push. Also, water symbolizes many things, not the least of which are adaptability, softness and at the same time, great force.
The theory of WON (circle) acknowledges that every person has his or her own circle of "private space." Attacks which invade this space should be redirected with flowing and circular defensive motions. This circle should be thought of as least resistance; always rolling (active), and therefore, difficult to hold or grasp.
Finally, the theory of HWA (harmony) represents the unity of mind and body. In practice, this is accomplished through repetition. Harmony is achieved within oneself, through a state of "emptiness" that recognizes "+" (yang) and "-" (um) are part of one; each is there to allow the other to exist, and cannot exist if the other part is not there.
The ramification of the theory of YOU-WON-HWA is that as flowing water seeks a harmonious state with its environment, constantly adapting to external changes, we should also seek to maintain harmony within our inner circle so that all trespassers in this space are redirected in direct proportion to the force they introduce.

Wouldn't surprise me; there's been plenty of cross-migration of concepts and techniques between arts, particularly within the same region or culture.

The way that those principles were taught to me, however, differs from how they are described in the the quote above. The way that I learned it was more like this:

Hwa: Harmonize with your opponent's movement so that you use his own force against him (push/pull)
Won: Use circular movements; the spacial element described in the KSW quote was also described in this as well.
Yu: Flow with the situation, allowing your movements and techniques to 'flow' from one to the next as needed.

Seems to work pretty well for me. My instructors never got into the flowery stuff

 

[milewski]

Judo is sport not combat.

 

[andyjeffries]

Also, I speak from personal experience in this regard, having practiced TKD with HKD joint locks and then later hapkido. Definitely different. Not a greater/lesser kind of difference; simply different.

Daniel, could you elaborate here please. I've done some sessions in Hapkido in the past (not enough to consider myself a Hapkido practitioner, more of a cross-training for a period to help my Taekwondo). I didn't feel any particular difference from the HKD-style joint locks I'd learnt from Taekwondo (just more of them).

So, feel free to ramble as much as you like (don't worry about conciseness), I'd like to understand more about the differences between Hapkido and Hoshinsool in Taekwondo.

I recently bought the book Hapkido by Marc Tedeschi along with about half a dozen books on step-sparring and Taekwondo Hoshinsool, trying to increase my knowledge in this area - but I'd appreciate the insight that someone who has actually trained in both has. Of course Puunui would be a great resource in answering this, but this is off-topic for his mailing list and he's absent from here...

Cheers,


Andy

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Judo is sport not combat.

I think you're posting in the wrong thread.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Daniel, could you elaborate here please. I've done some sessions in Hapkido in the past (not enough to consider myself a Hapkido practitioner, more of a cross-training for a period to help my Taekwondo). I didn't feel any particular difference from the HKD-style joint locks I'd learnt from Taekwondo (just more of them).

I suspect that you wouldn't, as in my experience, limited though it likely is, most of hoshinsul in taekwondo is hapkido sourced.

Pretty much universally, when I've asked taekwondo instructors who include hoshinsul where they learned it, they say they either studied hapkido and hold rank or picked it up from hapkido via a training partner or a seminar.

One gent even mentioned a book written by this gent: http://www.worldhapkido.com/master_choe.html, a book that I happened to have. Good book, by the way.

So, feel free to ramble as much as you like (don't worry about conciseness), I'd like to understand more about the differences between Hapkido and Hoshinsool in Taekwondo.

I think that the major difference between the two is that hapkido is centered around hoshinsul whereas taekwondo is centered around striking. Also, hoshinsul in taekwondo tends to be hapkido sourced. Even ITF taekwon-do, which has a fairly well developed hoshinsul in its curriculum, imported its hoshinsul from hapkido.

I don't look down on that, by the way. I took taekwondo with HKD sourced hoshinsul for several years and greatly enjoyed it, and if I ever find myself teaching taekwondo again, that is the sort of class that I would teach.

While I didn't notice the hoshinsul itself as being overly different, quantity aside, the strikes were executed differently and there were actually more kicks in the HKD that I learned than there are in taekwondo.

I recently bought the book Hapkido by Marc Tedeschi along with about half a dozen books on step-sparring and Taekwondo Hoshinsool, trying to increase my knowledge in this area - but I'd appreciate the insight that someone who has actually trained in both has. Of course Puunui would be a great resource in answering this, but this is off-topic for his mailing list and he's absent from here...

I'd like to see Puunui return to active posting, but I don't think that that is a priority for him right now. He could definitely give you a better answer than I, that is certain.