Exactly why I disagreed with testing him. I felt that he hasn't been a serious student. We have had white belts who have over 20 hours of training by 3 months . The most you can get is 36 hours per testing and testing is every 3 months. This kid missed almost a whole month of training. My instructor's philosophy is to be lenient when they are beginners 9-7 gup . Then begin holding the students more accountable, but he let a student test for 4th gup when he had 13 hours in 8 months. The only exception is that this student has to make 18 hours by 5 months, but all these exceptions, it almost as if we have these standards as a guide and not as law. Sometimes I'm left scratching my head in confusion as to why decisions are made the way they are, at the end of the day like some people have said, he may have his own agenda. I just have no idea what it is. I just remember I had 43 hours logged in for my 4th- 3rd gup test in 3 months. At that point the max was 48 hours because we trained 4 days a week instead of 3 like we do now. It's really cruddy when kids are testing with like 13 hours for these intermediate ranks, and I had almost three times that.
Does disagreeing make you a bad student?
- Thread starter Azulx
- Start date
Exactly why I disagreed with testing him. I felt that he hasn't been a serious student. We have had white belts who have over 20 hours of training by 3 months . The most you can get is 36 hours per testing and testing is every 3 months. This kid missed almost a whole month of training. My instructor's philosophy is to be lenient when they are beginners 9-7 gup . Then begin holding the students more accountable, but he let a student test for 4th gup when he had 13 hours in 8 months. The only exception is that this student has to make 18 hours by 5 months, but all these exceptions, it almost as if we have these standards as a guide and not as law. Sometimes I'm left scratching my head in confusion as to why decisions are made the way they are, at the end of the day like some people have said, he may have his own agenda. I just have no idea what it is. I just remember I had 43 hours logged in for my 4th- 3rd gup test in 3 months. At that point the max was 48 hours because we trained 4 days a week instead of 3 like we do now. It's really cruddy when kids are testing with like 13 hours for these intermediate ranks, and I had almost three times that.
I just come to realize that not everything is going to be "fair." My instructor is almost 60 , I doubt he even remembers what he ate for breakfast. He literally says that in class. So I can't expect him to remember to treat Student A like he treated student B a year ago. I've been thinking about this situation the last couple days, and realized that if this kid tested or not , "what the hell is it to me?" We ( all the instructors, and maybe even some students) now he isn't committed. Therefore he may not even make to the rank after yellow anyway. I've been trying to look at more of my instructors perspective and not hold on to mine with dear life. I am young and sometimes I feel like I am more knowledgeable and experienced taht what I really am. I can also be very stubborn as my instructor, I mean I probably learned a thing or to from him, about being this way lol. So I just have to be open minded, and just let the small things go, and like you said just be sponge learn and train, and don't let petty political things get in the way of it.
I just come to realize that not everything is going to be "fair." My instructor is almost 60 , I doubt he even remembers what he ate for breakfast. He literally says that in class. So I can't expect him to remember to treat Student A like he treated student B a year ago. I've been thinking about this situation the last couple days, and realized that if this kid tested or not , "what the hell is it to me?" We ( all the instructors, and maybe even some students) now he isn't committed. Therefore he may not even make to the rank after yellow anyway. I've been trying to look at more of my instructors perspective and not hold on to mine with dear life. I am young and sometimes I feel like I am more knowledgeable and experienced taht what I really am. I can also be very stubborn as my instructor, I mean I probably learned a thing or to from him, about being this way lol. So I just have to be open minded, and just let the small things go, and like you said just be sponge learn and train, and don't let petty political things get in the way of it.
and if he missed that time because of sickness or a family problem that your instructor knows about but is not telling everyone? You don't need to know everything.
I think your last paragraph is telling, you feel you've been treated badly. You haven't, get over it.
Yeah he just had school and work, I don't feel like I've been treated badly, just confused.
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of course not, that would be silly if I demanded to know everything.
I guess somehow I portrayed a message that I was resentful about something. This would be false, if anything I disagree to avoid other students resenting each other over what could seem as blatant favoritism. My instructor treats me well, he is encouraging as well. My original question was if disagreeing with him makes me bad student, because I do not want to be bad student. I just see and am use to different ways to be coached/instructed.
You do however sound as though you think you've been treated badly. Grading isn't really the point of martial arts, it's a bonus if you like, something you can tell your mates/family about. The point of martial arts is to train and learn, train and learn.
As for being extremely rude about your instructor being 60, I seriously think you should apologise to him and all the rest of us who are over sixty and not in our dotage. Who do you think you are to say he probably can't remember because he's OMG 60! he may say it as a joke but really, you can't. You have a lot to learn about life never mind martial arts and being an instructor.
Danny T
Senior Master
Wow over 20 hours of training. 36 hours the most you can get per testing. Missed a whole month!!
Does the student know the material? Can the student function at the level required for testing?
Why such an importance on testing, what is the purpose for testing? Is testing for the student or for someone else? Does the student getting to test mean that something will change about you, if not then there is really no concern is there?
Testing and Rank must be of great importance for you.
Be happy you don't study in one of the many more arts where there is no testing or belts.
The test; can you utilize your training.
Boxing, Muay Thai, Silat, Kali, Wing Chun, MMA, etc we just train, practice and we know who is at the higher levels because the test is every training session.
We test in our Ving Tsun and Escrima organizations. We don't use belts or insignias of rank though. Just a white T-shirt for beginners, grey for advanced, and black for those who choose to be assistant instructors (optional).
Testing not formal. But it does give an opportunity for me to check the student out, make sure that everything is solid and that I, as the instructor, didn't miss anything. I guess in that sense, we're both being tested!
If your instructor doesn't want your honest opinion, he shouldn't ask for it. That said, once he asks it's up to him what he does with it. If he doesn't go along with your advice, you shouldn't take it personally, just as he shouldn't take it personally that you didn't agree with him.
Regarding the specific issue at hand, I have a hard time taking seriously the notion that a student has learned anything worthy of a rank testing after just 15 or 16 hours (or 20 or 36 hours for that matter). Still, that's just my prejudices based on the arts I train in. If the student in question can perform on the test up to the expected standards for a yellow belt in your organization, then I don't see a problem with him testing. If he can't, then hopefully he will be given feedback on what he needs to work on. If the test is just a formality and everybody automatically passes, then you have other problems besides whether people are being given exceptions for the minimum number of hours trained.
Regarding the specific issue at hand, I have a hard time taking seriously the notion that a student has learned anything worthy of a rank testing after just 15 or 16 hours (or 20 or 36 hours for that matter). Still, that's just my prejudices based on the arts I train in. If the student in question can perform on the test up to the expected standards for a yellow belt in your organization, then I don't see a problem with him testing. If he can't, then hopefully he will be given feedback on what he needs to work on. If the test is just a formality and everybody automatically passes, then you have other problems besides whether people are being given exceptions for the minimum number of hours trained.
Tez , with all due respect, my comment was taken completely out of context. I did mean no disrespect to you or anyone of that age. I meant to say that he jokes about his poor memory , and I shouldn't expect him to remember everything perfectly. Please accept my apology, if I have offended you.
Does the student know the material? That would be up to my instructor.
Can the student function to the level necessary? This is up to my instructor as well.
why so much importance given to testing? That is just the atmosphere created in class, by my instructor, we are told day in and day the importance of testing and progression.
Will I change if the student test? No I will remain the same and continue to train with my best effort .
What is the purpose of testing? To my knowledge, to advance to the next step of training.
Testing and rank must be of great importance to me? This is a fair assumption considering that I feel strongly about testing. The most important thing to me is training and developing as a martial artist, specifically in the discipline I train. Rank for me until recently was meaningless, I knew what I could do and a colorful piece of cloth around my waist was not a determining factor of my ability. The reason why my perspective changed was because I began to feel that the testing were beginning to get silly , class requirements were no longer honored and things were beginning to get unstructured from how they used to be at my old school. Now the issue to me isn't that I feel like I'm mistreated. I feel that it is an injustice to the students training when they could be getting more experience more reps if there was a sense of accountability. I guess what I would want is more of an emphasis in the importance of coming to class, rather the importance of testing and progressing.
I would have no problem in a martial art with no rank, because my instructor wouldn't emphasize on rank, because that issue would be non existing.
As for the 20 and 36 hour thing, that may seem like a lot to some people, and almost no time to others. That literally all depends on how each person was brought up in their perspective martial art careers. I was just stating the requirements for my specific dojang.
Testing is a formality , my instructor , doesn't believe in failing students. This is a whole different topic that I have posted on before about the pros and cons of this. Some schools don't have these time requirements , students just test when they are ready, or there is a set testing date and no matter how much you've trained you can test, but you don't automatically pass. I dont have an answer to what is the best way to go about testing. I just know how it is done for us. Biggest key factor in what my instructors philosophy of testing is, " your test begins when you get your belt, not at the formal testing." My instructor came up to me before my last formal test and told me this" this isn't your test, your test began when I gave you your white belt " I believe that is respectable. I am not against my instructor, I believe in him. We just don't see everything 100% the same. If I truly believed that I wasn't getting quality instruction I would search for something else. I just don't know of any other ways to see things. I have only ever had one instructor, that is why I come here to see if what I even have an issue with is even worth it or relevant. Since there is hundreds of times more experience here than what I have.
Danny T
Senior Master
"That would be up to my instructor."
"This is up to my instructor as well."
"I will remain the same and continue to train with my best effort."
"The most important thing to me is training and developing as a martial artist..."
There you go; I believe that's your answer.
IMO, if you don't agree with your teacher, you should find yourself a new teacher. The reason is simple, if you don't agree with the "goal" and "path" that your teacher has set up for you and follow it, he can't help you much.
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No, no it's not like that. I don't want there to be confusion about this. I do agree with the way he teaches, runs class, etc. He asked me for my opinion and I gave it to him. It just didn't seem like it was the same as his opinion. My original question was does it make me a bad student if I don't blindly agree with everything. That is because I didn't know if a student is supposed to have the exact same perspective as their instructor to be a good, successful student. I was asked to give example of what I disagree on. i only had one main example ( the white belt test) and a petty one ( the use of Japanese terminology.) The fact that I don't like that he prefers Sensei over Sabumnim will not directly impact the "path" that he has for me. Testing a white belt a month before my opinion feels he should test, does not change the "goal" that he has for me to achieve.
I want to express how thankful I am for everyone who voiced their opinion on this forum, especially @Buka , @Danny T @kempodisciple @Tez3 .(sorry if I forgot anyone) You all have helped me in more ways than one to see things more clear in my martial arts path. I hope that I did not negatively represent myself too bad, as I was only trying to get a better understanding of a situation foreign to me. @Tez3 I apologize once again for the offensive joke.
After class today I talked to my instructor again about the situation. I told him that I didn't want my opinion to impede him from testing anyone. I told him in the end I came to a realization, that I trust his judgement in who should test when, where, how, etc. My instructor looked at me, smiled and, said I genuinely believe that the kid is ready to test, but I I respect your opinion. I wouldn't have asked for it , if I didn't want it. If me testing the kid in question really posed a problem to you, I would have waited a month, because I respect your opinion as my senior student. At least to me this showed me that, he doesn't want me to blindly agree with him, maybe he just wants my honest opinion in case I notice something he doesn't. I don't really know why, but I learned a lesson today, and that is to just trust trust my instructor. Also if he wants my opinion , that means he actually wants my opinion, and if he doesn't ask for it, then there is no need to express it. Thanks you to everyone who shared their thoughts.
After class today I talked to my instructor again about the situation. I told him that I didn't want my opinion to impede him from testing anyone. I told him in the end I came to a realization, that I trust his judgement in who should test when, where, how, etc. My instructor looked at me, smiled and, said I genuinely believe that the kid is ready to test, but I I respect your opinion. I wouldn't have asked for it , if I didn't want it. If me testing the kid in question really posed a problem to you, I would have waited a month, because I respect your opinion as my senior student. At least to me this showed me that, he doesn't want me to blindly agree with him, maybe he just wants my honest opinion in case I notice something he doesn't. I don't really know why, but I learned a lesson today, and that is to just trust trust my instructor. Also if he wants my opinion , that means he actually wants my opinion, and if he doesn't ask for it, then there is no need to express it. Thanks you to everyone who shared their thoughts.
Sounds to me like he genuinely trusts/respects you. You're lucky 
JR 137
Grandmaster
Something I've learned in my almost 40 years of life...
Rules are important.
- We have to draw the line somewhere
The intent behind the rule is far more important than the rule itself.
- Exceptions to rules should should be made when the intent of the rule is being followed, but the wording of the rule doesn't exactly follow the situation.
The purpose of the rule must be addressed and determined to be reasonable.
- Some rules we take for granted aren't very logical when you ask why the rule was made in the first place.
Rules are important.
- We have to draw the line somewhere
The intent behind the rule is far more important than the rule itself.
- Exceptions to rules should should be made when the intent of the rule is being followed, but the wording of the rule doesn't exactly follow the situation.
The purpose of the rule must be addressed and determined to be reasonable.
- Some rules we take for granted aren't very logical when you ask why the rule was made in the first place.
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