Do you train both sides?

[geezer]

I shamelessly stole this question from Flying Crane over on the Kenpo forum. On that thread Blindside responded:

"In general I think symmetry is overrated and not typical of historic combat systems, but it is good for development of an art where you have lots of time to build skill. But I don't think it is necessary.

We didn't require both sides, but by later in my rankings I had gone through all of my belts so that I had both sides."

Well, this got me thinking about FMAs, many of which are as Blindside put it, "historical combat systems." Moreover, when you are armed with blade or stick, you definitely have a stronger side, --your weapons side.

So when training, especially with weapons, do you guys train both sides symmetricalloy, or do you exclusively train in your "normal" mode with the weapon held in your dominant hand?

 

[Blindside]

Heh, well I think I will reply over here too....

Our Kali curriculum starts with a single weapon weapon focus and builds to double weapons.

Why?

My instructor's career is as a trainer to police and military units, so most of his students need real world skills in short order, and most don't have the time to do a five year build to functional skills. Think of the first year curriculum as a combatives curriculum aimed at fairly basic functional skills, single knife, single stick, basic unarmed. Weapon manipulation is focused on the dominant hand, most weapon defenses are practiced against right handed attacks. Use of the off hand (third hand/live hand/whatever) is pretty task specific, like practicing the draw of an offhand knife during a firearm retention exercise. The off hand is not expected to mirror the dominant hand. Because my curriculum is based on my instructors curriculum, my (largely civilian) students take the same approach. Once you get past the first year or so, the drills expand to encompass double weapons (double knife, double long blade, etc), but again we tend to retain a dominant hand focus.

The real world isn't symmetric, real world weapon users tend to have a dominant hand and they tend to have a single weapon. Given a choice are you going to pull an Inigo Montoya and fight the Dread Pirate Roberts with your off hand? Of course not, when the chips are down you will go to your best hand. Some people argue "well what if he takes out your good hand, what will you then?" Probably be badly injured, because if he is good enough to take out my good hand, he is probably going to devour me with my offhand.

Mind you, I am not arguing that you shouldn't train for symmetry with the offhand, I just don't think it is that important for combat systems, I think it is great for the arts sake. Even if you look at historical pictures of Filipino warriors, how many of them had two swords? I can't think of one, and think it would be fantastic if someone could cite one. What you do see is sword and shield, sword and shield, sword and dagger, single sword, single spear, etc.

But even if you get to empty hands, fighters are asymmetric. Look at sports as a basis, ring fighters tend to have a dominant side, if symmetry were a major advantage, you should see a large amount of champions who were able to switch hit their leads. In terms of boxing I can think of only one, Marvin Hagler. Any other examples of people whose ambidexterity made them a champion? And if it is a true advantage, we should see several, not just solitary individuals.

Just some food for thought.

 

[geezer]

In the first Escrima system I trained, emphasis was in getting it right with "power-side forward". Even the basic double-stick figure-eight pattern was not symmetical like the commonly known "six heaven", but we always led with the right strike first in each direction, in a simple cross-uncross pattern. That very simple pattern reappeared everywhere, including empty hands. And our instructor insisted that we get down his core concepts of power, speed, focus, balance, and transition with the dominant hand leading before we messed around working the "retarded side". LOL


Now I do try to work for more symmetry, but mostly as a personal challenge to build coordination. If I ever had to actually use this stuff, there's no way I'd go with my "retarded side". Reality is what it is, and Inigo Montoya I'm not.

 

[MJS]

Pretty much everything I do is right handed, for the most part. There are some drills that I do on the left side.

 

[geezer]

One reason I've been trying to work both sides more has to do with transitioning to empty hands. In addition to Escrima, I do Wing Chun, which is totally ambidextrous in approach. I favor my right-dominant or "power-side forward" escrima stance when armed with baston or blade, or even with empty-hands at a longer range, but as I close, it's natural for me to transition into a Wing Chun mode using both hands equally.

My goal is to maintain the discrete integrity of the two arts, but make the transition from on to the other as smooth and seamless as possible. This is totally consistent with the concept of transition as taught by my first Escrima teacher. You have to be able to effectively adapt to ever changing situations and environments, changes in weaponry, or having no weapon... in short, whatever happens, happens, and the most adaptable, the master of transition will be most likely to survive.

 

[billc]

In class we practice right handed technique mainly for time constraints. At home, I practice everything both sides. If I injure my right hand, at work or at home, and for some reason need to defend myself, the left will have to get the job done. I believe that even in firearm shooting they also train off hand shooting for self-defense situations. If self-defense is your long term objective you should train both hands equally. That is also why the FMA are so nice, using a stick or knife in the off hand isn't as much of a set back.

 

[arnisador]

The FMAs naturally work ambidexterity to a great extent--but while we are supposed to be working both sides in Modern Arnis, the truth is that I don't do it that much. Too much effort for too little return.

 

[Blindside]

I believe that even in firearm shooting they also train off hand shooting for self-defense situations.

Yes they do, but it isn't a mirror image, you don't learn shooting right handed in a weaver stance and then do it left hand to train your off hand. If you train under the assumption that your dominant hand is wounded (because otherwise you would be shooting with it) then the training for the non-dominant hand is different, it has a very different structure. I was taught that hand forward, that foot forward, a forward lean, and canting the gun 45 degrees, pretty much an old school duellists stance. Totally different than the isosceles structure that I use when shooting with my dominant hand.