Do you need to destroy your opponent OUTSIDE the dojang?

[Gwai Lo Dan]

In searching for a tkd school to join, I came across this self defence:

Hands grabbing collar up close - impact the ears with hands flat, make sure that there is no air escaping when impact is made, gauge the eyes with your thumbs, thumbs enter at top of eyes and push
forward to the back of the eyeball and force opponent to step backwards. Spinning side kick finish.

It seems a bit much to stick your thumbs to the BACK of the eyeballs, when the person only grabbed your collar. I would think that this move could potentially blind someone and lead to some extensive legal issues.

How about this for the first part of the self defence: Tell the opponent either to let go or you will have the police lay assault charges.

Thoughts??

 

[DennisBreene]

While I might not choose the same technique, I don't disagree with the principle. The minute you are grabbed, that is battery. You can't know if that person is capable of choking you out or intends severe harm and baring prior knowledge that this is a gesture in jest from a friend, I will assume the worst and stop the attack. Once I am safe from further attack, I will stop (that includes running). I will deal with the police as is appropriate and after I am safe. I don't intend to be a victim or a corpse without some effort to protect myself.

 

[IcemanSK]

In the words of Teddy Roosevelt, "Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft!" I think we need to do anything (walk &/or run away, if need be) to avoid a fight. But if it's not possible, do only what is needed to stop the attack, and no more. There's no need to compound the injury by adding to the attacker's pain.

 

[Gorilla]

The famous eye gauge!!!! Rofl!!!!! Forgot the groin grab!!!!!
And the hurtacane!!!!!!

 

[granfire]

In searching for a tkd school to join, I came across this self defence:

Hands grabbing collar up close - impact the ears with hands flat, make sure that there is no air escaping when impact is made, gauge the eyes with your thumbs, thumbs enter at top of eyes and push
forward to the back of the eyeball and force opponent to step backwards. Spinning side kick finish.

It seems a bit much to stick your thumbs to the BACK of the eyeballs, when the person only grabbed your collar. I would think that this move could potentially blind someone and lead to some extensive legal issues.

How about this for the first part of the self defence: Tell the opponent either to let go or you will have the police lay assault charges.

Thoughts??

Grabbing a hold of the eye socket gives you better leverage. I think the spin side is overkill...a nicely done unspun kick will do.
</sarcasm>

but I do hope the context will tell me whether I need to dig deep into my tricks of deviancy or if a softly whispered 'no' will suffice.
(I'd probably opt for breaking a nose and a punch to the throat, followed by dislocating a knee...)

 

[arnisador]

Sounds like Kenpo to me.

Check with a lawyer first on this one.

 

[aaradia]

In searching for a tkd school to join, I came across this self defence:

Hands grabbing collar up close - impact the ears with hands flat, make sure that there is no air escaping when impact is made, gauge the eyes with your thumbs, thumbs enter at top of eyes and push
forward to the back of the eyeball and force opponent to step backwards. Spinning side kick finish.

It seems a bit much to stick your thumbs to the BACK of the eyeballs, when the person only grabbed your collar. I would think that this move could potentially blind someone and lead to some extensive legal issues.

How about this for the first part of the self defence: Tell the opponent either to let go or you will have the police lay assault charges.

Thoughts??

There isn't enough context to make a decision about appropriate or excessive force here.

If I am in a parking lot late at night, and some stranger grabs me in such a manner, I am using all manner of force I am able to. Telling someone who has already grabbed me that "I'll tell the police to get you" is silly. That person won't care and if I don't defend myself, I won't have the chance to call the cops anyways. Leaving the argument of the probability of a successful eye poke out of the discussion, if I HAD the opportunity to do it, I wouldn't hold back.

If I am at a some social event and a friend gets too drunk and grabs me while making some drunken point, yes, I can probably get away with far less force or even with some words like "let go."

Part of our training is discussing appropriate use of force in various scenarios. Life is filled with all sorts of various situations. One needs to make a judgement call. There isn't a pat one size fits all answer here.
.

 

[terrylamar]

Just throw up on them, or pee your pants, yeah, that will do it. Make sure you have your lawyer on speed dial.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

... Telling someone who has already grabbed me that "I'll tell the police to get you" is silly. ...
.

Depends on context. If someone grabs you because he is mad when you took "his" spot in a mall parking lot on a Saturday afternoon, I think saying something is the right first move. I think risking someone being permanently blind is over the line in that scenario, and is not legally defendable if blindness results, if he was holding you with nothing further at that point.

 

[aaradia]

Depends on context. If someone grabs you because he is mad when you took "his" spot in a mall parking lot on a Saturday afternoon, I think saying something is the right first move. I think risking someone being permanently blind is over the line in that scenario, and is not legally defendable if blindness results, if he was holding you with nothing further at that point.

Except that isn't the scenario I described. Maybe I wasn't detailed enough. I thought I was. Let me try again. What I meant to describe in my first scenario was being grabbed for no reason, out of the blue, with no warning alone at night in a parking lot. Not an argument over a parking space, but an assault.

I was indeed intending to illustrate context. Maybe the few extra words avove clarifies that.

 

[Drasken]

Personally if both hands are on me and there is obviously no weapon I would twist my body and pin their arms with my own. Then bring the top arm across theirs, elbowing them repeatedly in the face ( and one to the throat at considerably less force if able ) followed by a throw and tie their hands up. However that changes if I see any other threats, like if they have any buddies with them.

The problem is, that each state differs on self defense. In some states it is practically illegal to defend yourself.
But either way, assaulting me in a parking lot at night will result in at least one broken bone or dislocated joint as I would rather end any threat in confrontation rather than go easy and let them assault me a 2nd time. Or even decide they need to pull that possible weapon.

That being said, it depends on the situation. If someone grabs me like that and it is them trying to show off to their friends at a bar or something? I'm going to warn them and tell them to back off. If they don't, and if the cops are not there or don't intervene I will then hurt them after warning has been given and witnesses have definitely heard it.
It's hard to give definites on excessive force. This might be excessive in some instances, but if a dude is trying to rape or murder someone then no this is not excessive and if the attacker is deafened or blinded permanently? Well he made his choice, and can now deal with the consequences.

 

[Earl Weiss]

There isn't enough context to make a decision about appropriate or excessive force here.

If I am in a parking lot late at night, and some stranger grabs me in such a manner, I am using all manner of force I am able to. Telling someone who has already grabbed me that "I'll tell the police to get you" is silly. That person won't care and if I don't defend myself, I won't have the chance to call the cops anyways. Leaving the argument of the probability of a successful eye poke out of the discussion, if I HAD the opportunity to do it, I wouldn't hold back.

If I am at a some social event and a friend gets too drunk and grabs me while making some drunken point, yes, I can probably get away with far less force or even with some words like "let go."

.

Exactly! I collar grab can be a lead up to nothing or the head but may be next.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Except that isn't the scenario I described. Maybe I wasn't detailed enough. I thought I was. Let me try again. What I meant to describe in my first scenario was being grabbed for no reason, out of the blue, with no warning alone at night in a parking lot. Not an argument over a parking space, but an assault.
.

AFAIAC in that situation I hurt them as bad as I can as fast as I can. Thgen look for the escape No other thought enters my brain. That is how it should be for everyone. I hope to heck it's not someone I know playing a joke. Then again if they know me they would be aware of the consequences.

 

[Rumy73]

Even if a person suddenly grabs you in the middle of a parking lot, blinding him is way over the top. It is highly likely you could face both criminal and civil court. Ignore the macho white pajama world fight fantasist perspective, checkout the story of Bernard Getz. While he was acquitted of murder, he lost in civil court and went bankrupt. When ever you use force, it has to be proportional to the threat. Unless you are in stand your ground state, there is likely a duty to retreat. If you can easily break away, the next step is to get out. The police will ask these questions. A lawyer will grill you, pointing out that you are a black belt which means you have the skill to extricate yourself with minimal harm.

 

[jks9199]

Simple way to figure out if it's overkill... Try to explain it to someone. As described, you can assume that Means, Opportunity, and a large part of Preclusion have been met. Can you justify their Intent? Was shattering their ear drums then blinding them necessary and reasonable in light of the attack, in light of the their Intent, and were lesser options fully Precluded?

I can give you scenarios either way here... A drunken idiot comes out of the bar, and grabs you to tell you about all the hot dancers, up to abduction with intent to murder and defile. One would justify anything -- the other, and you're not really justified in much more than escaping.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Even if a person suddenly grabs you in the middle of a parking lot, blinding him is way over the top. It is highly likely you could face both criminal and civil court. The police will ask these questions. A lawyer will grill you, pointing out that you are a black belt which means you have the skill to extricate yourself with minimal harm.

I reject your reality and substitute my own. Thinking you can use limited force on the street thug bent on causing you harm with the ability to do so is the white pajama fantasy.

 

[jks9199]

I reject your reality and substitute my own. Thinking you can use limited force on the street thug bent on causing you harm with the ability to do so is the white pajama fantasy.

Thinking you can go as far as you want is equally fantasy. Use of force law is actually fairly simple; you may use only the force reasonably necessary to safely resolve the situation. Intent, Means, Opportunity, and Preclusion are fundamental concepts. You're only justified in using the force that a reasonable person would find necessary based on the attacker's Intent, the Means and Opportunity he has to carry out that intent. Preclusion addresses using lesser levels of force; could you reasonably have run, hidden, simply escaped... or did you have to (in this instance) do grievous bodily harm (blinding, deafening, and then kicking!) to your attacker.

And before the inevitable "I'd rather be tried..." -- Yep, true. Definitely. Given the choice between dead, and on trial -- I'll take the trial every time. But I'd like to go into that trial confident that I'll be found not guilty, and that I'll be well positioned for the inevitable civil trial. That's where knowing how to justify the force you used matters.

 

[aaradia]

Even if a person suddenly grabs you in the middle of a parking lot, blinding him is way over the top. It is highly likely you could face both criminal and civil court. Ignore the macho white pajama world fight fantasist perspective, checkout the story of Bernard Getz. While he was acquitted of murder, he lost in civil court and went bankrupt. When ever you use force, it has to be proportional to the threat. Unless you are in stand your ground state, there is likely a duty to retreat. If you can easily break away, the next step is to get out. The police will ask these questions. A lawyer will grill you, pointing out that you are a black belt which means you have the skill to extricate yourself with minimal harm.

Macho fantasy? Really, you make some wrong assumptions here. I am a 47 year old female Library worker. I consider being grabbed at night a serious threat. I think the courts and police would agree with me. Also, you also should not assume everyone is a black belt/ sash. I have not achieved that level yet.

People have EVERY right to defend themselves from attack. That is entirely proportional to the threat level in this scenario.

You call it "white pajama world etc.", I would call what you suggest white light new age ridiculousness. This has no place in self defense scenarios. I am not going to stop and ask the persons intentions to assess how much force is appropriate. I am thinking a stranger grabbing me plans something REALLY bad for me. I want to get away alive and undamaged. Period. I will go after whatever target presents itself and I will not hold back.

Now as for retreating. AFTER I do whatever I have to do to break away from being grabbed. I will do my best to make it that the attacker can't chase after me and then I am going to indeed run away. Pretty sure most people would do the same.

Now realistically, I have been taught situational awareness in my school. The chances that someone would get that close in the first place is highly unlikely. I look around for questionable people hanging out in the parking lots at night from a distance first.

 

[jks9199]

Macho fantasy? Really, you make some wrong assumptions here. I am a 47 year old female Library worker. I consider being grabbed at night a serious threat. I think the courts and police would agree with me. Also, you also should not assume everyone is a black belt/ sash. I have not achieved that level yet.

People have EVERY right to defend themselves from attack. That is entirely proportional to the threat level in this scenario.

You call it "white pajama world etc.", I would call what you suggest white light new age ridiculousness. This has no place in self defense scenarios. I am not going to stop and ask the persons intentions to assess how much force is appropriate. I am thinking a stranger grabbing me plans something REALLY bad for me. I want to get away alive and undamaged. Period. I will go after whatever target presents itself and I will not hold back.

Now realistically, I have been taught situational awareness in my school. The chances that someone would get that close in the first place is highly unlikely. I look around for questionable people hanging out in the parking lots at night from a distance first.

Again -- can you articulate or explain the reason you had to do such serious bodily harm? If so -- you're more than likely OK. Age, gender, fitness, training... all that figures into the equation. My whole point here has been simple: You can use the force you can reasonably justify. If you use more force (American Kenpo is notorious for it, as are many of the "official" self-defense sets in many other arts), you may survive the encounter, but find yourself in jail or handing over a substantial portion of your income to somebody else for the rest of your life. (Hint: even a successful police use of force defense easily runs into the several tens of thousands of dollars... For a civilian, I can easily imagine it hitting that in pre-trial activity alone.)

 

[Rumy73]

So your answer is killing a thug? Because you reject limited force? You have never been mugged. I am certain of it. And do not stretch the truth. I have been jumped twice in my adult life. I was able to quickly shove his hand away and was able to run to safety. The other time I had my ccw. He backed off. Yes, I could have shot him but at the Travon Martin case. The best advice is to run. And for the 47 year old library worker, fighting back can make things worse. Talking one's way out has better results.