Distant Learning Vs. Video Testing

[James Kovacich]

Distant learning and distant learning/video testing are not one in the same. They can be but they are not. This has been brought up in another thread and I would like to see the discussion without ruining the other thread.

Anyway distant teachers that DO NOT video test include Joe Moreira and George Kirby. Lets have some thoughts, possitive or negative to the concept.

:asian:

 

[Sapper6]

Distant Learning/Video Testing...my thoughts...? i dont agree w/ it. at some point, you must have physical interaction between student & teacher. sure performing techniques in the air looks nice, might even be easier. but i kinda feel the only way you can be for certain that you are doing the technique correct is to perform it against resistence, another human. anybody can throw up an upward block in the air all day long...how about doing the same against a real threat. is your block gonna hold...? who knows

its just a sad circumstance when you see credible martial artists selling their system through the mail. anybody with half a brain, some MA experience, & and video recorder can do that. why lower your standards to compete on that level just to make a $$...?

off the subject a little...i recently cancelled my subscription to BB mag. for kinda the same reason. there once was a time when you sat down to read BlackBelt Magazine, you knew that you were gonna read quality stuff pertaining to the fighting arts. nowadays, it seems from cover to cover, nothing but rediculous ads supporting anybody & everybody selling MA styles through the mail. for God's sake, they even tie in selling ads into the articles. it's stupid. so here you have a credible MA magazine even jumping on the wagon of instant $$ supporting the whole belt by mail crap.

im sorry, if i wanted to read about DR. Harfouche, or whatever, this guy sells, id visit his website. i dont want it shoved in my face everytime i spend $5.00 on a magazine. by the way, what did this guy recieve a doctorate in? it's not listed on his website.

as for the credible guys doing the mail order rank stuff...why? because it's easier than opening a studio? because you dont have to tolerate everyday issues with students? well who said teaching MA was supposed to be easy? and if you dont like the whole student interaction issues, then you're in the wrong business. but then again, you can create your own business like selling a lump-sum of your systems teachings to joe-blow from idaho for the small price of $999.99 and not have to worry if he's doing it right or whatever.

simply put, these guys are a discrace to the Arts. they make us all look bad...on a final note, this is to all the mail-order MA teachers out there:

I hope your business goes down the drain just as fast as your integrity did the day you decided to do what you do.

 

[James Kovacich]

Sapper6,
I see your from Missouri. Do you know Lou Angel? He's celebrating 50 years in the martial arts this June. He told me that he's been in the arts long enough that he could tell if someone performs like a blackbelt even through video. He does not sell rank or a program that guarntees rank or anything of the sort.

He told me that there are a lot martial artists out there who have trained for 20 years in differant schools but never received a black belt and that if they learned his system he "would" be able to tell if they deserved a black belt.

I'm not talking about a bigginner but an experienced martial artist thats been around a bit.

Also whats your input on someone who has a program like George Kirby and Budoshin Ju Jitsu. He sell videos and has camps about every 3 months. Evaluations are in person along with a grading board.

:asian:

 

[Sapper6]

Sapper6,
I see your from Missouri. Do you know Lou Angel? He's celebrating 50 years in the martial arts this June. He told me that he's been in the arts long enough that he could tell if someone performs like a blackbelt even through video. He does not sell rank or a program that guarntees rank or anything of the sort.

He told me that there are a lot martial artists out there who have trained for 20 years in differant schools but never received a black belt and that if they learned his system he "would" be able to tell if they deserved a black belt.

I'm not talking about a bigginner but an experienced martial artist thats been around a bit.

Also whats your input on someone who has a program like George Kirby and Budoshin Ju Jitsu. He sell videos and has camps about every 3 months. Evaluations are in person along with a grading board.

:asian:

...i am very familiar w/ Mr. Angel. his HQ school is located in Joplin, about 30 minute drive from my home. Angel is a very accomplished pioneer in the MA.
for all you Jeff Speakman fans, Mr. Speakman received his 1st black belt from Mr. Angel. a very nice man i hear...i'm not familiar w/ Mr. Kirby's program, i could look into it. but just seeing that he hold camps & on-site seminars and just seeing that gradings & evaluations are done in person puts his program into a whole different arena... :asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

...i am very familiar w/ Mr. Angel. his HQ school is located in Joplin, about 30 minute drive from my home. Angel is a very accomplished pioneer in the MA.
for all you Jeff Speakman fans, Mr. Speakman received his 1st black belt from Mr. Angel. a very nice man i hear...i'm not familiar w/ Mr. Kirby's program, i could look into it. but just seeing that he hold camps & on-site seminars and just seeing that gradings & evaluations are done in person puts his program into a whole different arena... :asian:

I'm a student of both. I'm being guided by Lou to build up my group and that would explain why Jeff Speakman attends Lou's functions.

:asian:

 

[tshadowchaser]

On the geneal question of selling rank by viewing a viedo. If the person testing is, or has not been your personal student befor I would be against itt. A person who has been your student , then moved ( or you did) and wants to test for the next belt from you (but cant make it to your place becaus of $$$$) i can understand preforming on tape for your review.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I'm sorry to hear Kirby has opted this route. I have great respect for the man as jujutsuka, and would have thought that if anyone would have known better, it would have been the practitioner/instructor of an art in which soooo much of the skill is based on tactile feedback from and with training partners. How can you practice kote-gaeshi in the air, and hope to know the feel of a locked joint in real life? JJ as an art requires the ability to "graft" from one hold to the next, as the opponent strives to squirm away from the pain. No pain...no squirm...no true learning of how to graft locks and holds.

Tai Sabaaki includes how you move your own body in relation to the adjustments an opponent makes to your entanglements. How can you learn the feel of good adaptation without a force to adapt to?

Moriera surprises the hell out of me with his choice to participate in video testing; still can't really believe it, and probably won't till I read it myself. BJJ skill is developed only by swimming in the shark tank; not by imagining what swimming might be like, and how one may or may not respond when you have the shark or the shark has you.

Watch a video of hopping up and out of the legs of a guy who has another guy in a guillotine in the guard position. Now, be placed in that position, and try it. Different. Moreover, get "gacked" a couple of times because that's where your randori partner was setting up to go, and you didn't react quickly enough. You will learn to watch for that possibility, and respond to it only after having been through the interaction and consequences several times. BJJ can not be learned by video, nor can you evaluate someones prowess by video. Too many worlds open and close with the mere shifting of weight from fore to aft, or starboard to...that other thing (hey, I don't sail...what do you want.)

Most of learning new moves in BJJ takes place in a context like:

"Ouch" (tapping). "What the heck was that?"
"Here, let me show you"
"That's wicked. How do you block it from coming?"
"Well, that depends on which direction it's coming from. Let me show you what I mean."

You cannot get that interaction via tape.

Videotape can assess coordination in the performance of movements, even complex ones, making it viable for forms-based MA with no claims to combat applications. You could, ostensibly, eval Wu Shu, etc. But Mr. Angel cannot assess the sparring skill -- timing, coordination, etc. -- of a candidate without sparring with them. And if you get too old or beat up to do the sparring/fighting/randori evals yourself, that's what trusted younger disciples are for. But somewhere, there has to be flesh meeting flesh for an evaluation, and subsequent promotion, to hold any water.

Turn the video machine off, and move to the city where the dojo is located. Or find another hobby.

Dr. Dave

 

[James Kovacich]

I'm sorry to hear Kirby has opted this route. I have great respect for the man as jujutsuka, and would have thought that if anyone would have known better, it would have been the practitioner/instructor of an art in which soooo much of the skill is based on tactile feedback from and with training partners. How can you practice kote-gaeshi in the air, and hope to know the feel of a locked joint in real life? JJ as an art requires the ability to "graft" from one hold to the next, as the opponent strives to squirm away from the pain. No pain...no squirm...no true learning of how to graft locks and holds.

Tai Sabaaki includes how you move your own body in relation to the adjustments an opponent makes to your entanglements. How can you learn the feel of good adaptation without a force to adapt to?

Moriera surprises the hell out of me with his choice to participate in video testing; still can't really believe it, and probably won't till I read it myself. BJJ skill is developed only by swimming in the shark tank; not by imagining what swimming might be like, and how one may or may not respond when you have the shark or the shark has you.

Watch a video of hopping up and out of the legs of a guy who has another guy in a guillotine in the guard position. Now, be placed in that position, and try it. Different. Moreover, get "gacked" a couple of times because that's where your randori partner was setting up to go, and you didn't react quickly enough. You will learn to watch for that possibility, and respond to it only after having been through the interaction and consequences several times. BJJ can not be learned by video, nor can you evaluate someones prowess by video. Too many worlds open and close with the mere shifting of weight from fore to aft, or starboard to...that other thing (hey, I don't sail...what do you want.)

Most of learning new moves in BJJ takes place in a context like:

"Ouch" (tapping). "What the heck was that?"
"Here, let me show you"
"That's wicked. How do you block it from coming?"
"Well, that depends on which direction it's coming from. Let me show you what I mean."

You cannot get that interaction via tape.

Videotape can assess coordination in the performance of movements, even complex ones, making it viable for forms-based MA with no claims to combat applications. You could, ostensibly, eval Wu Shu, etc. But Mr. Angel cannot assess the sparring skill -- timing, coordination, etc. -- of a candidate without sparring with them. And if you get too old or beat up to do the sparring/fighting/randori evals yourself, that's what trusted younger disciples are for. But somewhere, there has to be flesh meeting flesh for an evaluation, and subsequent promotion, to hold any water.

Turn the video machine off, and move to the city where the dojo is located. Or find another hobby.

Dr. Dave

You need to re-read the thread.

I said George Kirby and Joe Moreira DO NOT video test.

George tells you before you sign up that you need a training partner. He holds seminars about every 3-4 months. He will let you send him a video for pointers but not testing. And you can get more time with him by attending at one of the dojos that host him throughout the year.

I started the thread comparing distant learning without video testing vs. the video testing.

I think its very possible to learn from video and I do. I draw quite a bit from it. I've put on a white belt over and over and ALL I get from attending so many schools over the years is one hour at a time. Thats it nothing more. ESPECIALLY if your experienced and know something that they don't! Thats what todays schools offer. They string out theres teachings as long as possible.

For the good schools out there. I'm sorry for that statement but the majority of schools even BJJ (where I put in 3.5 years) is going to give you an hour at a time.

Joe Moreira opens up a lot of doors for a lot of people. He dosen't video test but you can learn from his videos and he will come to your school.

For the experienced martial artist which I am, it works for me. It allows me to put new twists on what I teach.

As far as Mr. Angel. Until you have 50 years of M.A. under your belt, then you can't sat what he's able to see.

 

[James Kovacich]

On the geneal question of selling rank by viewing a viedo. If the person testing is, or has not been your personal student befor I would be against itt. A person who has been your student , then moved ( or you did) and wants to test for the next belt from you (but cant make it to your place becaus of $$$$) i can understand preforming on tape for your review.

Sorry. The general question of this thread is NOT about selling rank. It's about if distant training really works or not with or without the video testing.

Heres a perspective of mine. I've been working on a few videos for quite sometime. Now I recently moved from San Jose, Ca. to Tracy, Ca. A 1 hour drive. I still work near San Jose.

Now my videos were not intended for my for my current students but I'm going to give them an early version as back up. I'm working on building my school in Tracy now and I still have an arobic room to teach out of for my current students and the videos WILL help them.

Now I live half way between San Jose and Sacramento. If all goes smoothly, I'll be looking in the Sacramento or Stockton direction as well. Its going to help me grow and my students grow. Its going help me to be able to give up the high tech job and do martial arts full time. So I do see a positive benefit from distant learning for me and my students. Theres a large base of knowledge at your fingertips that would take many to get out of any one instructor. If your experienced enough, the videos are invaluable.

If your a newbie or just don't have it in your head that you can teach yourself something, then maybe its a waste of time.

:asian:

 

[Bammx2]

Newbie to the site here and this is my first post!
I have a medium to large collection of books and video's on a multitude of combative arts that I have obtained over the years and
I believe that "testing" via video is not such a good idea......
At the same time,some of the info can be helpful,depending on how you interperate(?) it.
I have an extensive background myelf in the arts with actual classroom instruction and legitimate ranking.
I do agree that nothing will ever beat practical expierience with an instructor and other training partners.
As for moving to a city where there is an instructor.....not always possible.
I think people should look at the fact that some video's where done with the best intentions in mind and done for those who cannot just up and move to the ole big city!
I think that anyone who uses video's solely to qualify themselves as an instructor..has issues!
I met a small group of people from the Orkney islands,farthest north of Britain,who use videos to train them selves.They don't have a school and would not dare to open one,they just use the videos for there small group of people....and a few bumps and bruises later,they are not bad,but they have no other choice.
Then again,people have purchased videos...and ended up moving to find what they saw.
I believe they are fine for collection purposes as well as adding a little spice.
A decent instructor with expierience would be able to tell the difference between a crock of....and something viable.
Unfortunately,if you live in some WAY out of the way places....its a lot of trial and error and money spent.
My question was...how could people that far out from civilisation find out about videos let alone vcr's?! ( that was a joke
But you must remember....our ancestors started with less than nothing...
"a little bit of something mixed with common sense is better than a whole lot of nothing at all"

 

[MJS]

Newbie to the site here and this is my first post!
I have a medium to large collection of books and video's on a multitude of combative arts that I have obtained over the years and
I believe that "testing" via video is not such a good idea......
At the same time,some of the info can be helpful,depending on how you interperate(?) it.
I have an extensive background myelf in the arts with actual classroom instruction and legitimate ranking.
I do agree that nothing will ever beat practical expierience with an instructor and other training partners.
As for moving to a city where there is an instructor.....not always possible.
I think people should look at the fact that some video's where done with the best intentions in mind and done for those who cannot just up and move to the ole big city!
I think that anyone who uses video's solely to qualify themselves as an instructor..has issues!
I met a small group of people from the Orkney islands,farthest north of Britain,who use videos to train them selves.They don't have a school and would not dare to open one,they just use the videos for there small group of people....and a few bumps and bruises later,they are not bad,but they have no other choice.
Then again,people have purchased videos...and ended up moving to find what they saw.
I believe they are fine for collection purposes as well as adding a little spice.
A decent instructor with expierience would be able to tell the difference between a crock of....and something viable.
Unfortunately,if you live in some WAY out of the way places....its a lot of trial and error and money spent.
My question was...how could people that far out from civilisation find out about videos let alone vcr's?! ( that was a joke
But you must remember....our ancestors started with less than nothing...
"a little bit of something mixed with common sense is better than a whole lot of nothing at all"

First off....Welcome to the forum!!! Second, I also have tapes. I believe that material can be learned off of them. Is that soley how I learn?? Not at all. Example- I train in BJJ. I have a few BJJ tapes that I watch, and pick apart some of the moves. I get together with my training partner and we work that move over and over and over and over. Regardless of if its a move that I already know or not, the fact remains that I have BJJ knowledge so its gonna be much easier for me to understand, compared with someone who has never had any BJJ training.

That IMO, is the important thing about tapes. They are only useful if you already have a background in that art. For anyone to think that they can soley learn from them...well, good luck!!! Nothing can take the place of quality instruction with someone who can show you the finer points of the moves.

Mike

 

[tshadowchaser]

I will agree that if a person has exprence in the art and must study rom a video ( for whatever reason) then a video is helpful. Testing on one might be a hard thing depending on what was involved in the test. Also if a student tests live the instructor can say "please do such and such again' or do tehnique xz from the opposit side" On a video you do it once, and hope for the best.
Yes you can learn from a viedo but being corrected for the small (or large) mistakes dose not take place until you have learned it wrong ( perhaps) and you send a tape back to the instructor. The interpersonal talk of an instructor and a student is just not there.
And yes i have also learned certian things from a video.
As a refrence for things already learned they are verry good.

 

[MJS]

I will agree that if a person has exprence in the art and must study rom a video ( for whatever reason) then a video is helpful. Testing on one might be a hard thing depending on what was involved in the test. Also if a student tests live the instructor can say "please do such and such again' or do tehnique xz from the opposit side" On a video you do it once, and hope for the best.
Yes you can learn from a viedo but being corrected for the small (or large) mistakes dose not take place until you have learned it wrong ( perhaps) and you send a tape back to the instructor. The interpersonal talk of an instructor and a student is just not there.
And yes i have also learned certian things from a video.
As a refrence for things already learned they are verry good.

Very good points!! :asian:

Mike

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

"As a refrence for things already learned they are verry good."

My bad for not having read the thread properly; a bit distracted at the time. This sentiment above pretty much sums up my own perspective. I, too, have kenpo and BJJ video/dvd sets, used as reference for things I may have not paid close-enough attention to while learning the first time. But the interaction, to me, still reigns supreme.

I learned the triangle choke at the Torrance academy, from a teaching brown belt, wrong. Years pass, videos are released, and the same minor distinctions are missed as were missed on the videos and in the lessons. Finally, in a semi-private, a small but important distinction about position x pressure is made while trying to place the instructor in triangle during drills, and the lights went on for me. You need an informed, warm body to offer feedback.

AKJA - sorry for the crappy schools that string you along. Esp. in BJJ, used to not be that way; used to be an attitude of "come in an train 3-4 hrs/night, 3-4 times/week", like hanging out w/ friends and family, but grappling instead of eating pizza & watching the game. Miss everything about it except lancing my ears (I was the wussy-boy with the headgear after a spell...might be rusty now, but I'm still pretty.).

 

[FatherHiei]

its just a sad circumstance when you see credible martial artists selling their system through the mail. anybody with half a brain, some MA experience, & and video recorder can do that. why lower your standards to compete on that level just to make a $$...?

off the subject a little...i recently cancelled my subscription to BB mag. for kinda the same reason. there once was a time when you sat down to read BlackBelt Magazine, you knew that you were gonna read quality stuff pertaining to the fighting arts. nowadays, it seems from cover to cover, nothing but rediculous ads supporting anybody & everybody selling MA styles through the mail. for God's sake, they even tie in selling ads into the articles. it's stupid. so here you have a credible MA magazine even jumping on the wagon of instant $$ supporting the whole belt by mail crap.

i personally am a fan of such videos.... i study tkd under an instructor and at a studio, however i do order some videos to observe the techniques and also to help me train better, i do disagree with giving ranks with the videos but i do hope that the business stays open

 

[Tomcov]

I think I saw someone mention that George Kirby does video training but not video testing...that he only tests in person. If his website is up to date and I am interpreting right, then this opinion is wrong. He apparently does do video training and testing...see his website and read the quote from him below: http://www.budoshin.com/home.htm

The BJJY is not currently formally testing for rank below the grade of 3rd kyu [3rd brown belt]. BJJY members may, however, submit evaluation tapes, covering the tests described in the Student Handbook. I will do an audiotape evaluation of your progress, indicating strengths, weaknesses, and areas that require particular attention. A certificate of rank will be issued if you meet the belt rank criteria. As a BJJY member, you may submit as many evaluation tapes per year as they wish. As a BJJY member, you are entitled to two free tape evaluations per year if you have a "regular" membership; 1/year with "associate" membership. There is a minimal charge for additional videotape evaluations. On site evaluations can also be arranged at seminars or at my dojo. The BJJY requires formal testing starting with Sankyu to make sure that students are progressing in the art a competent manner. This involves sending a pre-evaluation tape and answering questions on a short-answer written test. If the pre-evaluation tape and written test are satisfactory then you will be sent the formal testing procedure. On site testing can also be arranged at seminars or at my dojo. There is a minimal charge for testing. Formal testing is absolutely required for all Black Belt candidates! There is also a written essay and oral exam required for all dan grades prior to the mat testing. There is a minimal charge for testing. Complete testing details are available for Black Belt candidates in the Black Belt Handbook. Certificates of rank are issued for all grades when the candidate meets the requirements, successfully passes all written, oral, & performance portions, and has a current BJJY and AJA membership.

 

[evenflow1121]

I dont really agree with either of them, however, if you are a graded bb perhaps nidan and have absolutely no means of taking regular classes you may be able to learn through a distance learning program. If you are a lower rank or have never taken martial arts before, it would be difficult to impossible in both scenarios.

 

[arnisador]

If the grading is done in person, it might be acceptable. Grading by videotape? No way.