Dissing Those That Are Different

[Touch Of Death]

Hi, I just browsed over to the Kenponet and the very first thread of the day is of a man whipping through "Thundering Hammers" and a growing list of people saying how much it sucked. One guy even made fun of the guy for starting out of contact range (silly me, I thought that was what Martial Arts taught us). I have a complaint about him turning his back once the tech was over, but was it all that bad? I don't have slow MO on my computer so I must be missing something. What are your thoughts? AND of course, he doesn't do it like you do. :asian:

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Hi Sean,

I saw that too, and I was wondering how many of those people who commented there do you think would want their techniques aired on the internet?

My first thought...this is just not right!

MJ :asian:

 

[distalero]

He had no committment, no focus, only danced around his opponent, and actually skip danced away like a child. He was about one notch away from just phoning it in, as they say. That's why the term "patty cake" was used: it's exactly what he did. Painful to watch. And yes, the opponent gave one more of an apparent undending supply of "punches from across the room". Everybody starts with what was shown here, nobody should end up phoning it in, even in a demo, and especially not as a senior student.

 

[Karazenpo]

Why don't we all just admit the truth about techniques anyway? None of them are used in reality situations, not in their entirety. Once in a while, you're lucky to get off a portion of a pre-arranged technique and that's only, ofcource, providing YOU DIDN'T PREARRANGE IT! If you do get in any of these prearrange techniques on an opponent as taught, it means only one thing..........the guy was either too drunk or couldn't fight anyway. Martial artists take these techniques too seriously, it's not that they don't have something to offer, they do, but not in the realm many want you to believe. I've met many people, guys and gals, that could kick *** and didn't know any 'techniques'. Again, techniques are fine for teaching concepts and principles and continuous motion but let's not make them a religion on reality fighting. Let's not be a 'dojo warrior' and remember: 'anyone can beat up an uke'. As long as a technique shows accuracy, speed and power, you're fine.

 

[M.C. Busman]

Let's not forget how mechanics figure into it. Something that looks completely useless when demonstrated by a bigger man might be most useful to a woman of small stature...depending upon the size of the opponent, applicable conditions, etc. Much of what we practice with our training partners is debatable for that reason--but it doesn't lead me to practice with any less heart. I know one of these days I'll teach those same techniques to someone who might be able to--might have to--might instinctively use them. Will the work? Who can say.

Much of what we practice (some would argue most, or ALL) is theoretical. It's good to go hard in practice--but not so hard we severely damage ourselves or our partners. Why worry about getting your arm broken on the street if it happens in practice? So we modify a bit, we hold back enough not to cause harm. We should actively modify certain techniques as required (attackers stature vs. ours, practicing in different circumstances and conditions, etc.), and I believe most experienced martial artists, whether of the traditional or modern perspective, do.

Yes we're taking a gamble. Will It Work In The Street? That is the question. Until we have been forced to test it, it is impossible to say (maddening, isn't it?). We can prepare for that day though. It isn't wrong to critique what we see on the internet, in videos, in books, etc. In fact it shows we are thinking, even if the demo wasn't intended to stimulate such thoughts (side benefits!). Pointing out bloopers is a safety issue[/i]. Learning to incorporate that type of thinking in practice leads to a greater likelyhood that we will be able to implement practical application when the unexpected occasion arises.

As Joe Shuras pointed out, it's important to practice with speed, power, and accuracy. Learning enough combination techniques in practice will be of much more benefit than just practicing techniques for their beauty (ug!).


Have a Gr8 Week,

M.C. Busman

 

[Kenpodoc]

The Patty Cake comment was mine.

First, you wouldn't want to see me in video. My Kenpo tends to be ugly. I came late to martial arts, I work far too many hours and I'm just not that talented. On the other hand I don't have a Brick on my belt and if I did post a video I would expect appropriate criticism, that's how I learn. If you post a video on the net expect a response.

Second although I'm not a Tatum guy, I would go to the Tatum TOW to see a closer representation to how I was taught Thundering Hammers. When I teach my students I expect to see them controlling their opponent, not just with strikes but with appropriate checks and foot work.

Third, Mr Parker talked about sophisticated basics and I just don't see them in this short video. The emphasis was on speed and flash, but I felt the control was poor, the power lacking and the general delivery ineffective. Just watch Mr. Wedlake, Mr. Planas, Mr Trejo or their students do this technique, it has a different feel and one I personally prefer.

Fourth, the double chop at the end was just plain silly. Dropping your head and body back into the hot zone would have driven my instructor crazy.

Jeff

 

[Touch Of Death]

He had no committment, no focus, only danced around his opponent, and actually skip danced away like a child. He was about one notch away from just phoning it in, as they say. That's why the term "patty cake" was used: it's exactly what he did. Painful to watch. And yes, the opponent gave one more of an apparent undending supply of "punches from across the room". Everybody starts with what was shown here, nobody should end up phoning it in, even in a demo, and especially not as a senior student.

Well if you are going to start with your hands down to do an hammereing block, the punch better start at out of contact range. Perhaps you are starting to close. On a side note my computer only showed a quick pirroette before the video stopped. I did not see the cross out. Were his toes pointed toward or away from his opponent on the cross out? (Then I'll tell you what I thought of his cross out.) Why is skipping away like a girl bad anyway? Does that take away from your general ninja prowess?
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

The Patty Cake comment was mine.

First, you wouldn't want to see me in video. My Kenpo tends to be ugly. I came late to martial arts, I work far too many hours and I'm just not that talented. On the other hand I don't have a Brick on my belt and if I did post a video I would expect appropriate criticism, that's how I learn. If you post a video on the net expect a response.

Second although I'm not a Tatum guy, I would go to the Tatum TOW to see a closer representation to how I was taught Thundering Hammers. When I teach my students I expect to see them controlling their opponent, not just with strikes but with appropriate checks and foot work.

Third, Mr Parker talked about sophisticated basics and I just don't see them in this short video. The emphasis was on speed and flash, but I felt the control was poor, the power lacking and the general delivery ineffective. Just watch Mr. Wedlake, Mr. Planas, Mr Trejo or their students do this technique, it has a different feel and one I personally prefer.

Fourth, the double chop at the end was just plain silly. Dropping your head and body back into the hot zone would have driven my instructor crazy.

Jeff

Thundering Hammers does teach us to use leg checks, but what is fundimentaly wrong with just drilling the guy in the face and following with an uppercut motion? Perhaps he did the tech at contact range because contact penatration range would simply kill his UKE. That is one way of controling damage you know. If his focus was on flow he did just fine; don't have enough info to diss this guy. Further more, becoming more primitive in your motion is not that bad of an idea; so, he missed the possible face check insert... wahh!
Sean

 

[mj-hi-yah]

First, you wouldn't want to see me in video. My Kenpo tends to be ugly. I came late to martial arts, I work far too many hours and I'm just not that talented. On the other hand I don't have a Brick on my belt and if I did post a video I would expect appropriate criticism, that's how I learn. If you post a video on the net expect a response.

That's honest! :asian:

 

[Maltair]

Couple questions on your guy's responses...

"Perhaps he did the tech at contact range because contact penatration range would simply kill his UKE" What are these?

His toes were pointing toward's the dead Uke as he hopped away. I was trying to think why that would matter. My covers are towards the opp, thats just cause I'm still facing him as I cover away. Is that what you are talking about?

 

[Maltair]

And how would you demo a tech any better then that. His balance looked good, up right and all. Stance's looked good, I think I would have gone into a stronger forward bow on a couple of the hits but thats me.

Maybe if his Uki had tried to respond with another blow instead of sitting there, then the canceling portion of tech would have been more evident.

I just answered my own question didn't I :whip: :ultracool

 

[Kenpodoc]

Thundering Hammers does teach us to use leg checks, but what is fundimentaly wrong with just drilling the guy in the face and following with an uppercut motion? Perhaps he did the tech at contact range because contact penatration range would simply kill his UKE. That is one way of controling damage you know. If his focus was on flow he did just fine; don't have enough info to diss this guy. Further more, becoming more primitive in your motion is not that bad of an idea; so, he missed the possible face check insert... wahh!
Sean

Kill his Uke? My guys can take a much bigger his than that, come up smiling and have a good time. If his focus was on flow then the movement is neither smooth nor powerful enough. Nothing wrong with drilling the guy in the face and following with a good upper cut, it's just not what happened on the video I saw. My instructor would have clobbered me for hopping backwards on the coverout without looking over my shoulder. My 16 yo son would have been lying on the floor laughing at me (but he does that a lot anyway.)

Jeff :asian:

 

[Kenpodoc]

Sorry to continue on this topic. I think that this video has a lot to offer as a teaching technique.

1. No use of back up mass. He just uses torque which diminishes the power.

2. His arms are moving faster than his torso. You can't strike with power any faster than you can move your core.

3. It's OK that the attacker starts from 15 feet away, that happens in real life.

4. Starting with hands down, a thrusting inward blocking punch might have been a better entry.

5. He misses his targets for the Thundering hammers because he is too far away. They strike the edge of the back with a glancing angle and even with full force would have caused little damage. (Don't practice missing targets.)

6. The spin is silly but it's a demo so flash is OK.

7. The Leg checks are an essential part of the technique, they help keep the opponent off balance and in defensive mode.

8. No check on opponents R arm but he's standing too far away to need one.

9. The double strike at the end is silly. Why bend your face into your patients centerline and risk getting hurt. Just step on him.

10. The hopping away retreat looked like Olympic TKD. That sort of motion is fine in the ring where you are rarely attacked from behind. Mr. Parker added cover outs for a reason.

Please note that if you filmed me you could extensively critique that also.

Please, how would you see this differently.

Respectfully,

Jeff

 

[Dr. Kenpo]

I'm like Kenpodoc. Mine isn't the prettiest either, and it's not supposed to be. You do the best you can. If one survives the real encounter, then you did good. Besides, it's a demo, what's it gonna look like? Geez, leave the guy alone, do one better than him, or change the channel.

 

[distalero]

Well if you are going to start with your hands down to do an hammereing block, the punch better start at out of contact range. Perhaps you are starting to close. On a side note my computer only showed a quick pirroette before the video stopped. I did not see the cross out. Were his toes pointed toward or away from his opponent on the cross out? (Then I'll tell you what I thought of his cross out.) Why is skipping away like a girl bad anyway? Does that take away from your general ninja prowess?
Sean

I didn't say he skipped away like a girl, and anyhow I kind of like girls, and don't have any problems with their interpretation of things. Actually he skipped away somewhat like a chimpanze, or some other sort of related primate, and not a skilled karateka. The last moves of that, or any other technique, is stepping out and covering, because it's not over 'til it's over, theoretically; there are several ways of doing that that I know of, and none of them look like you might finally stop and rest on your knuckles while hooting.
Of course techniques are theoretical, however in the process you're learning any number of things, one of the necessary fundamentals being the point you where you "click" and cross over to internalizing a basic intent to be right there, forcefully: focused intent to be on and through your opponent. It's almost a kind of intimacy, in a way. If you have this, you'll show it even in techniques; you can't help but not.
Lastly, I don't have anything against flash, not in a demo, anyhow, as long as you can do it as well as the basics. I do have a general problem with those "punches from across the room". In the street fights I've witnessed no one's ever thrown one, other than drunks. Jerks invariably get in your face, literally, and will sucker punch in a heartbeat. Some acknowledgement of this has to be made, with senior students anyhow.

 

[Michael Billings]

Orig posted by distalero
(directly above)
he skipped away somewhat like a chimpanze, or some other sort of related primate; or

(top of the page, yet you deny writing this in a subsequent post?)
He had no committment, no focus, only danced around his opponent, and actually skip danced away like a child.

Granted, I never saw SGM Parker use an exit strategy like was demonstrated on the video ... but I also never heard him slam someone else in as public a format as this is either.

-Michael

 

[Kenpodoc]

Granted, I never saw SGM Parker use an exit strategy like was demonstrated on the video ... but I also never heard him slam someone else in as public a format as this is either.

-Michael

Agreed no need for personal insults and name calling. This is a Kenpo Forum however and a great opportunity for in depth scrutiny of what was done well and what could be better. We can all learn when people review our behavior or actions.

I periodically have my students perform techniques or forms for the rest of the class and then we discuss how to improve what we saw. Everyone learns and everyone improves. At the end of class we sit in a circle and my students tell me what they thought went well in class and what I did wrong. We discuss how we might make the next class go better.

Granted the chimpanzee comment was not subtle, but Mr. Parker would not have approved of the bouncing Olympic TKD style retreat. I never met him but I imagine that he would have gotten that big smile on his face and just shook his head.

So help us. Please give your review of the video.

Respectfully,

Jeff

 

[Kenpodoc]

Granted, I never saw SGM Parker use an exit strategy like was demonstrated on the video ... but I also never heard him slam someone else in as public a format as this is either.

-Michael

He denied saying that he skipped away like a "girl".

Jeff

 

[Touch Of Death]

Come to think of it, there is a vidoe clip of Mr. Parker doing "Five Swords", ultra fast, where he pulled every strike. Where was the outrage then?
Sean

 

[Kenpodoc]

Come to think of it, there is a vidoe clip of Mr. Parker doing "Five Swords", ultra fast, where he pulled every strike. Where was the outrage then?
Sean

I haven't seen it.

Jeff