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FearlessFreep

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Based on a different conversation, I wanted to look up a bit on 'what really is Taekwondo?". So I went to the WTF site to see if I could find any description of what TKD is, what techiques are encompassed in the art, etc...

My impression from the wtf.org site is that the WTF at least really no longer take Taekwondo as a martial art for combat, self-defense, etc. The term they use is "Martial Art Sport" and the web page is all about competition rules, etc... Does this follow with other people's understandings of WTF and Taekwondo?



And is there a good website that describes or outlines what Taekwondo really is? I guess maybe I'm looking for either a) a list of techniques or b) a theoretical or philosophical approach from which techniques may be drawn
 

Marginal

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The TKD Encyclopedia defines it as, "Taekwon-Do: The mental training and techniques of unarmed combat for self defense as well as health. It involves the skilled application of punches, kicks, blocks, and dodges with bare hands and feet for the rapid destruction of a moving opponent or opponents."

The basic idea though is that the legs are stronger and longer than arms, so therefore they should be the most effective tool, and TKD was generally developed under that strategic doctrine.
 

Yeti

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You can check out www.tkdtutor.com. It's got some good info on TKD history, philosophy, technique, etc. A lot of the forms/poomse section is based more on ITF style than anything else, but a lot of the information is "uni-federation".
 

TigerWoman

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What I perceived TKD to be changed as my belt changed, ever so slowly.
What at first was ridiculously hard work, to small victories, to noticeable ability gains, to introspection and mental and moral affirmation (as well as anguish at times) and strengthening and service to the school. Now it is broader in that I want to give what I learned with the experience to other women. This experience may be in other traditional martial arts though. But basically TKD was fun or I wouldn't have stayed in it. It is physically exhilarating to jump and spin and feel the power within. Our master makes our workouts very varied as he has had many masters teaching him. And I have connected with a new familiy as it seems to grow us all close and supportive of each other. Each traditional martial art has its own direction circle but this has been mine.

I also invested in alot of books along the way. My first one was this WTF book which is at centuryma: book here TW
 

Gemini

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FearlessFreep said:
Based on a different conversation, I wanted to look up a bit on 'what really is Taekwondo?". So I went to the WTF site to see if I could find any description of what TKD is, what techiques are encompassed in the art, etc...

My impression from the wtf.org site is that the WTF at least really no longer take Taekwondo as a martial art for combat, self-defense, etc. The term they use is "Martial Art Sport" and the web page is all about competition rules, etc... Does this follow with other people's understandings of WTF and Taekwondo?
I believe the WTF sees the sport aspect as its future. I think its a cop out, but that's just my opinion. There could be many reasons for this to which we, as practitioners, are not privey so I try not to be to judgemental. I was taught that the sport aspect was just a small part of a much larger picture. As much as I love competition, I still only see it as a fraction of what my training has been all about.
 

Han-Mi

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YES, competition focused WTF TKD is a martial sport. But not all WTF TKD and especially not all TKD is sport focused.
 

Langdow

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I think this is a common misconception. WTF is a sporting organization, comparable to FIFA. The WTF does not deal with the martial art side of TKD at all but is in place to promote the sporting aspect (olympic style) Kukkiwon on the other hand is in place to deal with the martial art side and to issue dan rankings based on instructor recommendations.

From the WTF/Kukkiwon side the Kukkiwon is considered to be in charge of developing the "art" side and developing base curriculum for Kukkiwon/WTF schools to follow.

My personal opinion is that when people speak about WTF TKD they speak about sport side. When WTF is referred to as a style, in comparrision to ITF, this is wrong, as the style side was developed by Kukkiwon.
 

Rick J

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Langdow said:
I think this is a common misconception. WTF is a sporting organization, comparable to FIFA. The WTF does not deal with the martial art side of TKD at all but is in place to promote the sporting aspect (olympic style) Kukkiwon on the other hand is in place to deal with the martial art side and to issue dan rankings based on instructor recommendations.

From the WTF/Kukkiwon side the Kukkiwon is considered to be in charge of developing the "art" side and developing base curriculum for Kukkiwon/WTF schools to follow.

My personal opinion is that when people speak about WTF TKD they speak about sport side. When WTF is referred to as a style, in comparrision to ITF, this is wrong, as the style side was developed by Kukkiwon.
I follow your line of thinking and agree with the distinctions you make between WTF and Kukkiwon but the terminology WTF and Kukkiwon are synonymous to many people so when people refer to WTF TKD as a martial art one could assume they mean Kukkiwon TKD.
 

Gemini

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Rick J said:
I follow your line of thinking and agree with the distinctions you make between WTF and Kukkiwon but the terminology WTF and Kukkiwon are synonymous to many people so when people refer to WTF TKD as a martial art one could assume they mean Kukkiwon TKD.
I'm one of those people. I've never heard the Kukkiwon or WTF referring to each other as separate entities, but rather playing separate roles within the single entity. What Langdow said made sense. Puts it in a little different (if not clearer) light.
 

Miles

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Langdow is right.

The perceptional problem was compounded by the fact that for many years the WTF (i.e. the international governing body for Olympic Taekwondo) was housed within the Kukkiwon (the building, not the institution).

Now the WTF is no longer housed in the Kukkiwon.

Miles
 

Langdow

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I think another part of the problem is that the public perception of TKD is seen as sport. Since WTF=Sport the problem is created by seeing only one side of what is done.

I personally think that the sporting side represents a very small population of the whole of TKD people. I'd be interested to see how many TKD people here actually compete regularly or at all. I know for my school there is less than 1/4 of the students who actually train to compete, and then there is an even smaller percentage of those who actually do compete.
 
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NotQuiteDead

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You can check out www.tkdtutor.com. It's got some good info on TKD history, philosophy, technique, etc. A lot of the forms/poomse section is based more on ITF style than anything else, but a lot of the information is "uni-federation".
I think it's odd that the footwork described on that website is exactly the same as the footwork in Kevin Seaman's book "Jun Fan Gung Fu: Seeking the Path of Jeet Kune Do" and most of the 'vital grappling' is described exactly like the stuff in this link about the Modern Army Combatives Program, which is derived from Brazilian jiu-jitsu. Not to mention that the website explains the jab, cross, hook, and uppercut.
 

Miles

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NotQuiteDead said:
I think it's odd that the footwork described on that website is exactly the same as the footwork in Kevin Seaman's book "Jun Fan Gung Fu: Seeking the Path of Jeet Kune Do" and most of the 'vital grappling' is described exactly like the stuff in this link about the Modern Army Combatives Program, which is derived from Brazilian jiu-jitsu. Not to mention that the website explains the jab, cross, hook, and uppercut.
:) I have been training since late last year in kali and I thought it was wonderful that they were doing many of the same footwork drills I teach. Good material is good material no matter the source. I enjoy discovering the similarities and the differences inherent in many martial arts.

Miles
 
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FearlessFreep

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Agreed. My instructor emphasizes the need for good balance and to keep good balance requires good footwork. I wouldn't think TKD was unique in how it approaches using your feet for balance and mobility.
 
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NotQuiteDead

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I'm not talking about similarities, I'm talking about them using the exact same terms for the exact same thing. 'Step and slide', 'push step', 'pendulum step', etc. come right out of that book. The 'vital grappling' is exactly the same as what is described in that link I posted. The jab, cross, hook, and uppercut are not TKD terms.

That site may be primarily about TKD, but a lot of the stuff on there is obviously not tae kwon do.
 
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FearlessFreep

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'Step and slide', 'push step', 'pendulum step'... The jab, cross, hook, and uppercut are not TKD terms.

We've used either those terms or those ideas in class. AFAIK they are basic movements and basic terms to describe movements. We use them in TKD but I don't assume they are exclusive to TKD but I do assume they are TKD
 
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NotQuiteDead

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The jab, cross, hook, and uppercut are from boxing. You think really Choi came up with four punches that are exactly the same punches in boxing, and then somehow thought of names that are exactly the same their boxing counterparts?
 
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NotQuiteDead

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The jab, cross, hook, and uppercut are from boxing. You think really Choi came up with four punches that are exactly the same punches in boxing, and then somehow thought of names that are exactly the same their boxing counterparts?

All I'm saying is that the website in question has a lot of non-TKD stuff that is blatantly taken from other sources and claims it is from TKD.
 
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FearlessFreep

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NotQuiteDead said:
The jab, cross, hook, and uppercut are from boxing. You think really Choi came up with four punches that are exactly the same punches in boxing, and then somehow thought of names that are exactly the same their boxing counterparts?
Of course not. TKD itself was based on earlier ideas and I don't think Choi 'came up' with anything really.

Muy Thai and TKD both use a roundhouse kick (although excuted a bit differently) but that does that mean a roundouse kick is "Muy Thai" or "TKD" and that the other is ripping it off or something? No. They just both happen to incorporate that technique.

FWIW, there are some minor differences in hand strikes between boxing and TKD. Boxing keeps the strong side back to get more power into the strong-side strike. They don't switch stances. As a result, they don't step into any strikes coming from the back-side. TKD takes a more ambidextrous approach, pretty much requiring you to be able to strike front side or rear-side with either foot forward. As a result, rear side hand strikes (reverse punches, hooks, etc..) will often be accompanied by a step in with the rear-leg. Not really bothering with which is 'better' because I don't think it's germane, but boxing and TKD have different base philosophies and as a result the techniques the both share have variations is application.

All I'm saying is that the website in question has a lot of non-TKD stuff that is blatantly taken from other sources and claims it is from TKD.

Then complain to that site owner!!! This thread was about the direction of tkd in general and had sorta fallen aside until you chose to ressurect it whining about what you didn't like about the content of a linked to site.

FWIW , he does talk aboot a lot of things not directly related to TKD, like mounts and guards, but afaik he's not claiming that they really have anything to do with TKD, especially not that they come from TKD. I don't think he claims *any* technique originates from TKD, just that they happen to be within the TKD curriculum
 
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NotQuiteDead

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I wasn't whining about the site, I said I thought it was odd that a site called "tkdtutor" (which implies it's about tkd) talks about things that are not from tkd without mentioning that they aren't.

Someone said that site had good info on TKD, I was pointing out that not all of it was...

To get the thread back on topic, what exactly is TKD if someone people use JKD footwork, boxing punches, wrestling, bjj, etc. and still call it tkd?
 
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