Differences Between the Keysi Fighting Method and Defence Lab

Chris Parker

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Hi, I just have a question about the differences between the Keysi Fighting Method and Defence Lab. What are the pros and cons for both fighting styles?

To get into any kind of detail regarding these systems, you'd need someone who's trained both extensively... that said, there's some things to be covered in regard to these "systems" that I'll cover at the end.

The reason I’m asking is because I wanted to make my own style based on these styles, but I want to take the best elements from both of them.

What makes you think that, firstly, you're in any position to make a new style, that a new style will genuinely have anything to offer, or that you can create a new style off of something you know pretty much nothing about, and therefore can't possibly know how valid it would be for any aim you think you have?

I was meaning to look more into these styles anyway, but I wasn’t home and couldn’t get access to my computer so I had to use my phone to ask a quick question on this before I forgot until I got home.

If your aim is to incorporate these systems into a new system (again, how can you know if that's even a practical reality if you haven't even started training in it yet?), then you'll need to spend years training in it to get to anything where you'd have any insight of value to assess the situation for your desire... the idea of "I only had my phone" is, bluntly, meaningless here.

I didn’t think about that. The only reason I was asking this was because I was away from my computer and I used my phone to ask this question until I could get onto my computer so I could research these styles. Thanks.

If your aim is to incorporate from them, you need to train them, not "research" them (oh, and this is nothing like research, you realise...). So the only real question is are they locally and practically available to you for you to study... if not, then this is all nothing but fantasy and delusion.

One OTHER thing I forgot to say is that MAYBE there’s a chance that someone who is as interested as I am in learning both these styles has the same question and I’m asking in hopes that THEY will get the answers too. I’ll look at both these styles and list the pros/cons to both of them when I do.

The only reason to do a comparison is if they're both viable options to you... and if your aim is to mine them for something you clearly have a fantasy of, then this entire line of questioning is just showing glaring issues in your understanding of the entire situation.

I was planning on doing more than just researching them. I am planning on training these styles as well. I think it’s time I told you about my background that I haven’t gotten around to posting about in the INtroducing Myself thread just yet so you could get an idea of what I’m about. I have a 1st degree black belt in American Kenpo and since leaving, I have gotten into making my own self-defense systems by researching (and training) all these fighting styles because I want to be a self-defense instructor one of these days. Not just that, but I would also look at the best variations for a certain technique (like the Jab, for example), take the best step(s) from each variation and use them to make my own devastating version of it so it does maximum damage with minimum effort in minimum time.

I'll be blunt here. You are what many of us would consider a beginner. You also are quite lost in fantasy regarding, well, everything. You want to be a self defence instructor, but don't know what that entails. You want to look at the "best variations", and make your own "devastating version" of them? Do you really think that everyone who trains in the techniques of their arts aren't wanting them to be done as powerfully as possible, with the least expenditure of effort? Are you sure you know what you're talking about?

I'll put it this way... "self defence" is not a collection of techniques... nor is it focused on "devastating techniques" with "maximum damage". Self defence, as a subject, is based in an understanding of social and asocial violence, habitual acts of violence, cultural understanding of what might be encountered, predator behaviour, legal realities, psychological facets (of both aggressor and victim), and so on. It requires developing skills in awareness, gross-motor reactions, minimal numbers of techniques that have high return/low risk components, and more. In fact, it could be stated that if a self defence situation has escalated to being physical, then there have already been at least four of five failures of opportunity. What it is absolutely not about is about "winning", "beating" someone, or anything of the kind.

In addition to this, simply taking a bit from this, and a bit from that is, simply, a bad idea that is fraught with problems. For any system to be effective, it needs to have consistency... looking at multiple variations, separate from their context and reasoning, means you simply won't understand what works and why... so you can only, by definition, import incorrect and incomplete versions that you haven't understood in the first place. There is nothing realistic or practical in your ideas at all.

Now, none of this is to say that your desire to be a self defence teacher is unrealistic... but the first step is going to have to be learning what that is... then, seeing if there's something that matches it for you to do. You are so woefully undereducated that you don't know what is needed, let alone how you would go about creating something new that is actually valid in any way. The idea that you can do that, without knowing anything about it, is purely ego.

This is a work in progress. I’m still trying to figure out how to test this myself. I might even do what Paul Vunak did and use front line cops, combat soldiers and street fighters as guinea pigs. How I would go about that, I’m figure that out along the way.

Yeah... do you have access to such persons? If not, how would you go about getting them? And what makes you think that any of those groups are even close to what you would need to look at self defence as an aim? Self defence and fighting are really, really not the same thing at all.

Let me just get one thing out of the way. To everyone who‘s going to give me **** about me wanting to create my own styles using various fighting styles, go love yourselves. Just get that bo staff out of your asses and shut the love up. The only ones who’ve been helpful are Monkey Turned Wolf and Blindside while you guys just came here to be assholes. So either have something to contribute to this thread that’s remotely helpful or love right off.

Yeah, you might want to watch the attitude there... bear in mind, we've seen this kind of fantasy before, and we know how it goes. You don't know what you're doing, or how you'd do it, and, for whatever reason, think you have some kind of value to offer in the field. That said, just to answer your question, for what it's worth, let's look at the two systems you've asked about.

Keysi, and Defence Labs, realistically, are just two versions of the same thing. Defence Labs was developed by Andy Norman, one of the two founders of Keysi, after a falling out. He has made many statements saying that they are quite different, but... well... nah. Keysi itself claims to have been based in an exploration of street fighting experience from Spain... however, it's primary purpose was to be sold for Hollywood movies, most famously being the foundation of the fight choreography in Christopher Nolan's Batman trilogy with Christian Bale. As a result, the focus is more on the "look", aiming to be distinctive, rather than having any genuine practical reasoning. If you're looking at movie choreography-designed arts for the foundation of a self defence system? Well... yeah... you're actually a fair bit further off than is implied earlier...
 
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DIYorDie89

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Jesus, Man.... Just go to train both styles, test them in the cage and on the streets many times and then realize you do not need to ask not-so-clever questions.
Obviously you didn’t read my replies... Just read them and then realize you do not need to make not-so-clever comments.
 

Flying Crane

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Ive got to ask: if you have not trained either of these systems, why and based on what information, have you identified them as systems upon which you want to base your own system?
 

Cynik75

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Obviously you didn’t read my replies... Just read them and then realize you do not need to make not-so-clever comments.
Obviously you do not understand that making new style of self defence should be based on real life experience not on youtube demos and hollywood movies.
BTW: Why do you want to create new self defence style?
How will it be different from other self defence styles?
 
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DIYorDie89

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To get into any kind of detail regarding these systems, you'd need someone who's trained both extensively... that said, there's some things to be covered in regard to these "systems" that I'll cover at the end.



What makes you think that, firstly, you're in any position to make a new style, that a new style will genuinely have anything to offer, or that you can create a new style off of something you know pretty much nothing about, and therefore can't possibly know how valid it would be for any aim you think you have?



If your aim is to incorporate these systems into a new system (again, how can you know if that's even a practical reality if you haven't even started training in it yet?), then you'll need to spend years training in it to get to anything where you'd have any insight of value to assess the situation for your desire... the idea of "I only had my phone" is, bluntly, meaningless here.



If your aim is to incorporate from them, you need to train them, not "research" them (oh, and this is nothing like research, you realise...). So the only real question is are they locally and practically available to you for you to study... if not, then this is all nothing but fantasy and delusion.



The only reason to do a comparison is if they're both viable options to you... and if your aim is to mine them for something you clearly have a fantasy of, then this entire line of questioning is just showing glaring issues in your understanding of the entire situation.



I'll be blunt here. You are what many of us would consider a beginner. You also are quite lost in fantasy regarding, well, everything. You want to be a self defence instructor, but don't know what that entails. You want to look at the "best variations", and make your own "devastating version" of them? Do you really think that everyone who trains in the techniques of their arts aren't wanting them to be done as powerfully as possible, with the least expenditure of effort? Are you sure you know what you're talking about?

I'll put it this way... "self defence" is not a collection of techniques... nor is it focused on "devastating techniques" with "maximum damage". Self defence, as a subject, is based in an understanding of social and asocial violence, habitual acts of violence, cultural understanding of what might be encountered, predator behaviour, legal realities, psychological facets (of both aggressor and victim), and so on. It requires developing skills in awareness, gross-motor reactions, minimal numbers of techniques that have high return/low risk components, and more. In fact, it could be stated that if a self defence situation has escalated to being physical, then there have already been at least four of five failures of opportunity. What it is absolutely not about is about "winning", "beating" someone, or anything of the kind.

In addition to this, simply taking a bit from this, and a bit from that is, simply, a bad idea that is fraught with problems. For any system to be effective, it needs to have consistency... looking at multiple variations, separate from their context and reasoning, means you simply won't understand what works and why... so you can only, by definition, import incorrect and incomplete versions that you haven't understood in the first place. There is nothing realistic or practical in your ideas at all.

Now, none of this is to say that your desire to be a self defence teacher is unrealistic... but the first step is going to have to be learning what that is... then, seeing if there's something that matches it for you to do. You are so woefully undereducated that you don't know what is needed, let alone how you would go about creating something new that is actually valid in any way. The idea that you can do that, without knowing anything about it, is purely ego.



Yeah... do you have access to such persons? If not, how would you go about getting them? And what makes you think that any of those groups are even close to what you would need to look at self defence as an aim? Self defence and fighting are really, really not the same thing at all.



Yeah, you might want to watch the attitude there... bear in mind, we've seen this kind of fantasy before, and we know how it goes. You don't know what you're doing, or how you'd do it, and, for whatever reason, think you have some kind of value to offer in the field. That said, just to answer your question, for what it's worth, let's look at the two systems you've asked about.

Keysi, and Defence Labs, realistically, are just two versions of the same thing. Defence Labs was developed by Andy Norman, one of the two founders of Keysi, after a falling out. He has made many statements saying that they are quite different, but... well... nah. Keysi itself claims to have been based in an exploration of street fighting experience from Spain... however, it's primary purpose was to be sold for Hollywood movies, most famously being the foundation of the fight choreography in Christopher Nolan's Batman trilogy with Christian Bale. As a result, the focus is more on the "look", aiming to be distinctive, rather than having any genuine practical reasoning. If you're looking at movie choreography-designed arts for the foundation of a self defence system? Well... yeah... you're actually a fair bit further off than is implied earlier...
Thanks for the reply. I will admit that I had posted this thread too prematurely BEFORE training these styles and THEN asking for people’s take on them. And as far as my attitude is concerned, sometimes you just have to vent to drive away anybody looking to give you **** (the asterisks were intentional, BTW).
Ive got to ask: if you have not trained either of these systems, why and based on what information, have you identified them as systems upon which you want to base your own system?
I posted this thread too hastily instead of looking into (and training) these styles beforehand. And I misspoke. What I meant to say was that I was looking to incorporate them into my self-defense arsenal.
Obviously you do not understand that making new style of self defence should be based on real life experience not on youtube demos and hollywood movies.
BTW: Why do you want to create new self defence style?
How will it be different from other self defence styles?
I COULD just do what Paul Vunak did before training front-line cops, street fighters and combat soldiers and go to dangerous environments and pick fights to see what works and what doesn’t. 😆 But all joking aside though, what I meant to say was taking the best aspects from BOTH fighting styles and incorporating them into my arsenal.
 
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DIYorDie89

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Before anybody else replies, do yourselves a favor and read this. I will edit my original posts. What I meant to say was that I was looking for the best aspects of both fighting styles that I was looking to learn to incorporate into my self-defense arsenal.
 
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DIYorDie89

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On second thought, I have gotten the answers I was looking for on these systems that I was already thinking about practicing. So thank you to everyone who helped me and no further replies are necessary.
 

drop bear

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I love the intellectual back flipping that goes on when someone comes on and says he is just going to invent a martial arts.

And suddenly it is the style that matters.
 

Martial D

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I love the intellectual back flipping that goes on when someone comes on and says he is just going to invent a martial arts.

And suddenly it is the style that matters.
Right? But the same exact scenario, only a long time ago, and suddenly it's above reproach or questioning.
 

Dirty Dog

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I love the intellectual back flipping that goes on when someone comes on and says he is just going to invent a martial arts.

And suddenly it is the style that matters.
I don't know where you're seeing that. I don't, certainly. I do see people saying it's kind of silly to say you're going to use parts of X and parts of Y and maybe a smattering of Z to make up your art art. Even though you have no training in any of them.
 

drop bear

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I don't know where you're seeing that. I don't, certainly. I do see people saying it's kind of silly to say you're going to use parts of X and parts of Y and maybe a smattering of Z to make up your art art. Even though you have no training in any of them.

Ok. How do we know keysi even works?

Do we feel it is more legitimate because it has better branding?
 

Tez3

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Ok. How do we know keysi even works?

Do we feel it is more legitimate because it has better branding?
Well the OP doesn't know because he doesn't train it nor the Defence Lab stuff but wants to put them together to make 'his' fighting style. He wants us to tell him instead of finding out for himself.
 

Cynik75

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... He wants us to tell him instead of finding out for himself.
What can be done if there is enough evidence of Keysi efficacy. But there is not. So mr. DiyorDie89 wants to create new SD style using untested techniques, tactics and strategies only because of their cool looking in demos and Batman movie.
edit: maybe it is my personal bias but I really do not like people who absolutely want to create new SD style without any necessity (except need to self-esteem). Especially if they do not have enough knowledge and experience. I have met a few masters-of-they-own-styles and they all were 100% bullshido and parody of martial artists.
 
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drop bear

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Well the OP doesn't know because he doesn't train it nor the Defence Lab stuff but wants to put them together to make 'his' fighting style. He wants us to tell him instead of finding out for himself.

So?

Is that a less legitimate method than any other self defence system?

When did Results suddenly start to matter?
 

Tez3

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So?

Is that a less legitimate method than any other self defence system?

When did Results suddenly start to matter?
You're having a different discussion to the rest of us, we're pointing out that someone wants us to compare two systems for him so he can decide which techniques he wants to use in his 'brand new system' he's starting up. It's irrelevant whether either or both of these systems are legitimate or not, or even whether they work. The point is the OP's assumption we'll do the work for him instead of him doing it.
 

Dirty Dog

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Ok. How do we know keysi even works?

Do we feel it is more legitimate because it has better branding?
You surely do love you some strawmen...
I don't think anyone has made any statement one way or the other about the effectiveness or legitimacy of either of the systems mentioned. I know for a fact I have not. So if you want to play with your strawmen, maybe you could find a corner and play with them quietly?
 

Dirty Dog

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But people have said OPs concept won't work and isn't legitimate.
What people have said is that the idea of combining 'the best parts' of two systems, when you don't actually know anything about either system is a stupid idea. And it is. Feel free to add this to your strawman pile. You might need a ladder to get to the top of the pile though.
 

drop bear

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What people have said is that the idea of combining 'the best parts' of two systems, when you don't actually know anything about either system is a stupid idea. And it is. Feel free to add this to your strawman pile. You might need a ladder to get to the top of the pile though.

Why is that any more stupid than any other idea?
 
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