A
AlwaysTraining
Guest
What exactly are the differences between Northern and Southern styles. I've read a few different explainations but I'd like to hear it from the practitioners.
Lots, but not many.
In the generalized sense, barring internal/external, animal/hand, short/long & in no way a complete or even close to accurate & complete comparison ...
Southern systems tend to use hands more than Northern systems.
Southern systems tend to be a little more direct & straight forward in application & theory.
Southern systems tend to marry weapons to hands.
In the generalized sense, barring internal/external, animal/hand, short/long & in no way a complete or even close to accurate & complete comparison ...
Southern systems tend to use hands more than Northern systems.
Southern systems tend to be a little more direct & straight forward in application & theory.
Southern systems tend to marry weapons to hands.
Well, here are a couple of threads on the topic, soem interesting reading about the topic.
Northern, Southern Fighting Strategy
Northern vs Southern
Reading those threads you will see I have a big problem with the distinctions and its mostly from my training in 7* mantis. We are considered a "northern" system but fight (in my experience) more "southern" than many "southern arts". Let me say that my experiences are almost exclusively limited to mantis with only a bit of Hung Gar, Eagle Claw, and some basic Wing Chun. I also train heavily with partners from other systems such as Karate, Muay Thai, and Gracie Jujitsu. That being said, my intrest is mainly in fighting so I may appraoch the situation different from someone whose intrest is more for forms or the art of the systems.
Basically I think the distinction is usefull in explaining systems but fails to really capture the essence of any of the styles. I feel that a truly complete system will contain the best principles or techniques regardless of Northern or Southern distinction. I can see both "northern" and "southern" in many arts as I can see both "internal" and "external". So, I guess I would say take the distinction for a grain of salt and understand that its simply a way to classify and attempt to describe the methods of a system, not in any way a complete explination of any one style.
Ok, off my soap box...
7sm
Northern, Southern Fighting Strategy
Northern vs Southern
Reading those threads you will see I have a big problem with the distinctions and its mostly from my training in 7* mantis. We are considered a "northern" system but fight (in my experience) more "southern" than many "southern arts". Let me say that my experiences are almost exclusively limited to mantis with only a bit of Hung Gar, Eagle Claw, and some basic Wing Chun. I also train heavily with partners from other systems such as Karate, Muay Thai, and Gracie Jujitsu. That being said, my intrest is mainly in fighting so I may appraoch the situation different from someone whose intrest is more for forms or the art of the systems.
Basically I think the distinction is usefull in explaining systems but fails to really capture the essence of any of the styles. I feel that a truly complete system will contain the best principles or techniques regardless of Northern or Southern distinction. I can see both "northern" and "southern" in many arts as I can see both "internal" and "external". So, I guess I would say take the distinction for a grain of salt and understand that its simply a way to classify and attempt to describe the methods of a system, not in any way a complete explination of any one style.
Ok, off my soap box...
7sm
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Xue Sheng said:
This is a bit of an oversimplification. Tibetan White Crane and Choy Li Fut are both considered "Southern", but use long, sweeping movements and lots of space, for example.
It is difficult to really categorize what the difference is. I think personally that different systems developed under various circumstances and influences and so simply are what they are. Generalizations often don't apply very well once you start looking at examples.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Xue Sheng said:
Well, it was originally Tibetan but was brought into southern China so got lumped in with the other southern systems. It has some stylistic similarities with Choy Li Fut, and influenced Hung Gar, esp. with the Fu Hok set of Wong Fei Hung. One of the original Ten Tigers of Canton was a White Crane guy (actually probably Lama or Hop Gar at the time, see next paragraph) and was a friend of Wong Fei Hung's father.
The system went thru some changes over the centuries. Origninally it was Lion's Roar style in Tibet, then Lama style (practiced by the Tibetan Lamas) when it was brought into China, then it took the name Hop Gar, and from Hop Gar it split into a sister art known as White Crane. They still all exist as distinct arts, but are very similar and come from the same root.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Flying Crane
Cool, Thank You.
I have read about southern systems and I have a friend that is a Wing Chun person, but as for my Kung fu it has been primarily Northern. And my understanding, and I admit my previous description was worded poorly and/or I could be entirely wrong.
I should not have used "movement" What I meant was 'distance" ground covered.
Xingyi can cover a large distance in a short time; Shaolin has cartwheels and flips in order to move away or closer faster.
My understanding of the difference between North and South styles came from terrain. There was simply more open space in the North.
Am I close to right or WAAAAAAY of base?
Cool, Thank You.
I have read about southern systems and I have a friend that is a Wing Chun person, but as for my Kung fu it has been primarily Northern. And my understanding, and I admit my previous description was worded poorly and/or I could be entirely wrong.
I should not have used "movement" What I meant was 'distance" ground covered.
Xingyi can cover a large distance in a short time; Shaolin has cartwheels and flips in order to move away or closer faster.
My understanding of the difference between North and South styles came from terrain. There was simply more open space in the North.
Am I close to right or WAAAAAAY of base?
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Xue Sheng said:
I think in general you are correct. It is just that once we move beyond the general sense and look at specific examples, we see that the generalities often aren't as accurate.
My sifu also teaches a lot of shaolin material so I am familiar with that and understand the kind of ground that is covered. I have also studied Wing Chun so I know how compact that system is. I have had opportunity to witness things like Bok Mei, Mantis, Choy Li Fut, Hung Gar, Bagua, and Hsing-I. I would say that Shaolin is the best example of the stereotypical northern system and Wing Chun would be the best and most extreme example of a southern style. But then Choy Li Fut is much more like a northern style even tho it is southern.
My point is that I think it is just difficult to make a real Northern/Southern categorization that is accurate more than about 30% of the time. While I find it interesting to know where styles originated from, I think getting hung up on these kinds of categorizations isn't the best way to look at them. I prefer to look at the system for what it is and not worry about what kind of techniques it "should" have based on where it came from.
This is just how I prefer to relate to things. Maybe it gives you something to ponder.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Flying Crane said:
I agree and thank you for the clarification.
So basically if I look at the 2 extremes, those being Shaolin and Wing Chun the differences are obvious but beyond that the difference are much more subtle.
And just to clarify, I am not trying to say one is better than the other. I just have more experience with Northern styles. The Southern Styles I have seen, mostly Wing Chun and a little Choy Li Fut, have been very impressive.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Xue Sheng said:
I think we are understand each other and are in agreement.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Gaoguy said:
I know almost nothing about Fujian Crane, but did see a few video clips of some of their forms. Very interesting, and very very different than Tibetan Crane.
It is entirely possible that Fu Hok has Fujian influences. I certainly don't know enough about it to dispute that. But there are definitely elements that are Tibetan, like the Pou Choi and Baht Gim punches that are found in the set. These are classical, signature Tibetan techniques. You see similar things in Choy Lay Fut as well.
According to my sifu, a close friend of Wong Fei-Hung's father was a highly accomplished Lama/Tibetan Crane practitioner and this is where the influence came from. I can't point to documentation to prove it, but this is what I have been told.
Just to clarify, the name White Crane was not attached to the system until the early-mid 1900s. Prior to this, it was known in China as Lama and Hop Gar. According to the creation myth, in the 1400s or so, a Tibetan Lama was meditating in the mountains when he witnessed a fight between a Crane and a "mountain ape" of some kind (I guess there is a species of Macaque that lives in some areas of Tibet; not a true ape, but a good sized monkey). From this fight, the monk devised the system.
I am not going to argue about the historical accuracy of this story. I don't think it matters. But the system is supposedly based on movements of the Crane and the Ape. So, attaching the name Crane, even at such a later date, is not entirely inappropriate.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
7starmantis said:Basically I think the distinction is usefull in explaining systems but fails to really capture the essence of any of the styles. I feel that a truly complete system will contain the best principles or techniques regardless of Northern or Southern distinction. I can see both "northern" and "southern" in many arts as I can see both "internal" and "external". So, I guess I would say take the distinction for a grain of salt and understand that its simply a way to classify and attempt to describe the methods of a system, not in any way a complete explination of any one style.
Ok, off my soap box...
7sm
I think 7* has some good point here, and I will try to elaborate a bit.
Lets suppose there is a continuum, one end being Wing Chun representing the extreme Southern Style, and the other end being Northern Shaolin Longfist, representing the extreme Northern Style. (I am just using these styles as examples, not making any other implications here. This is just for the sake of discussion).
Each of these styles has certain stylistic characteristics that make it Northern or Southern. Other styles would fit somewhere on this continuum, some closer to Northern, others closer to Southern, some in the middle. But most would fall where they do for different reasons from each other.
Maybe there would need to be several continuums: stances, movement, kicking; punching. Each style would fall on the different continuums based on these aspects of the style. So in regard to kicking, one style might be closer to Northern, but in regard to punching the same system might be closer to Southern.
What I am trying to do here is just illustrate how difficult it becomes to fit any style into a general categorization like this. There is no way to really measure and and quantify these arts. I think point of origin is really the only good way to categorize an art as Northern or Southern, but stylistically it is just much more murky.
In addition to this, there is much more cross-training and borrowing from one style to another in modern times, then there was a few generations ago. Martial arts are no longer kept in such secrecy, and we are able to travel much more to train and see different things. People learn things and incorporate them into their parent style and the parent style changes based on this. This is another reason why it is difficult to make this kind of classification.
Sorry to ramble on like this, but these thoughts were just floating around in my head so I decided to try and share them.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Flying Crane said:
Good point, I would imagine as China's political system changed, for instance when Mao came to power, many Northern stylists moved south which would add to that mix.
For example Yang Tai Chi comes from the North, but Yang Cheng fu taught in the south. Also today there is more freedom to move in China allowing Southern and Northern Stylist to move.
I was recently given a DVD from Beijing of a martial art I had not heard of, turns out it was Wing Chun with the Mandarin name instead of the Cantonese name. Once I have the name, I will let you know what it is, if you are interested.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Xue Sheng said:
Yes, let us know what it is called. That would be interesting.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
clfsean said:
You are correct sir.
The name on the DVD is Yong Chun Quan. The person doing the form is Peng, Shusong
It is, I think is the first form in Wing Chun - (Also mandarin) Xian Lian Tou.
And now that I have read the small print on the back it is obvious, it talks about Southern Boxing and I quote
“It was Bruce Lee who introduced Yong Chun to the world”
I don't feel to bad, I know people from Beijing that know what Yong Chun Quan is but do not associate it with Wing Chun, Bruce Lee or Lee Jun Fan. I guess I should have asked them if they new Li Xuà njīn instead, but then again I just found out what his name was in Mandarin.
Xue Sheng said:
Don't know him, but bully on for him. Also no "sir" lives here.
Xue Sheng said:
Siu Lum Tao... Little Idea.
Xue Sheng said:
Well Bruce Lee may have got the world wide attention to Wing Chun, but he was an unfinished student that if I remember right didn't get past the 2nd set (Chum Kiu) but was a decent enough streetfighter.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
clfsean said:
I just had a chance to ask someone from Beijing, and they didn't know who Li Xuà njīn, but they knew Jet Li. And I was not aware that Bruce Lee did not go that far in Wing Chun with Yip Mann. But now I am getting way off subject.
Back on subject, this seems to show that there has been quite a mixture of Northern and Southern styles.
Thanks for the info.
