Did a little training with Tony Dismukes

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JowGaWolf

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I have never seen anyone block a jab and stand there the way KFW's student does in that demo.
I know of some videos that show this. I'll look for them when I get home so you can see the set up for it. KFW wants student stands still because Wang is showing the approach and they are not sparring. I did the same thing when Tony was explaining his approach to a single leg take down. I just stood there and focused on what he was teaching and showing me.

But I'll see if I can find those videos. One actually resulted in a KO.
 

marvin8

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Both are closed stances (southpaw vs southpaw and orthodox vs orthodox). Both step and kick with the front leg. Either kick can be countered with a side step and rear overhand.

I must be looking at the wrong clip because what I saw was a front kick to knee and a move to the outside of the lead hand. That second clip was a low kick to the inside of the leg and a move towards the inside.
Again, both stances are closed and either kick can be countered with a side step and rear overhand. KFW's student can side step to the right and throw the overhand left, which is the same. That is more risky than Volkanovski's front cut.
 

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I know of some videos that show this. I'll look for them when I get home so you can see the set up for it. KFW wants student stands still because Wang is showing the approach and they are not sparring. I did the same thing when Tony was explaining his approach to a single leg take down. I just stood there and focused on what he was teaching and showing me.

But I'll see if I can find those videos. One actually resulted in a KO.
In the video, Volkanovski drills the front cut with his trainer without sparring. He doesn't need to kick, grab and pull the lead arm (which can be countered) to perform the front cut. CMA principle "Economy of Movement."

Does Tony's approach to a single leg takedown require grab and pulling the lead arm? I wouldn't think so. Feint or punch, then change levels to the single leg is typical in MMA.
 

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In the video, Volkanovski drills the front cut with his trainer without sparring. He doesn't need to kick, grab and pull the lead arm (which can be countered) to perform the front cut. CMA principle "Economy of Movement."
Do you agree that when you move in, you should "sense" where your opponent's legs are and also where his hands are (for your own safety)?

When you

- move in toward your opponent, if you don't kick him, he may kick you. It's better for you to kick him than to let him to kick you.
- are in the punching range, if you don't punch him, he may punch you. It's better for you to punch him than to let him to punch you.

A safe entering is trying to reduce your risk to the minimum.

In your video, during his entering strategy, his opponent's left foot can front kick his belly. His opponent's both hands can hook punch his head.

FUjgpVR.gif
 
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JowGaWolf

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Again, both stances are closed and either kick can be countered with a side step and rear overhand. KFW's student can side step to the right and throw the overhand left, which is the same. That is more risky than Volkanovski's front cut.
Closed stance is a general term describing which foot is forward in comparison to your opponent. It does not give any detail on if the feet are positioned to kick or punch or if the feet are position for a quick take down. If all you see is closed stance or open stance then you are missing the stance and the possible points of attack and defense defined by the stance.

Tony demonstrated this when we were training. We were in a closed stance but none of that matters as he asked me did I see what he just did. What did he do? He moved his rear foot behind his lead foot which allowed him to advance forward faster and over a greater distance. one has to look beyond just open stance and closed stance especially when taking a look at what techniques follow.
 

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Again, both stances are closed and either kick can be countered with a side step and rear overhand. KFW's student can side step to the right and throw the overhand left, which is the same. That is more risky than Volkanovski's front cut.

Closed stance is a general term describing which foot is forward in comparison to your opponent. It does not give any detail on if the feet are positioned to kick or punch or if the feet are position for a quick take down. If all you see is closed stance or open stance then you are missing the stance and the possible points of attack and defense defined by the stance.
Again, KFW's student can side step to the right and throw the overhand left, which is the same.

Tony demonstrated this when we were training. We were in a closed stance but none of that matters as he asked me did I see what he just did. What did he do? He moved his rear foot behind his lead foot which allowed him to advance forward faster and over a greater distance. one has to look beyond just open stance and closed stance especially when taking a look at what techniques follow.
Again, Does Tony's approach to a single leg takedown require grab and pulling the lead arm? I wouldn't think so. Feint or punch, then change levels to the single leg is typical in MMA.
 
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Does Tony's approach to a single leg takedown require grab and pulling the lead arm? I wouldn't think so. Feint or punch, then change levels to the single leg is typical in MMA.
From what I picked up with the little time training. Tony is diverse enough where he could choose the best approach based on how I stand. If he felt like anything was needed then he would do it. In less than 3 hours he was already exploring with Long fist and how he could integrated it with take downs. Specifically for him. I don't sense "required" being the cade. He is aware of the dangers of the lead hand and was able to trap the crap out of mine.

If we were sparring, I would most likely attack his lead hand until he didn't want to stick it out or until he counters me. Damage the hand and affect the grappling would be my mindset. But in sparring I wouldn't take it to that level. I also would play hand games with him either..

If you give Tony the opportunity to control you lead arm then I think he would. There was nothing about Our training session that made me think that he wouldn't.
 

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From what I picked up with the little time training. Tony is diverse enough where he could choose the best approach based on how I stand. If he felt like anything was needed then he would do it. In less than 3 hours he was already exploring with Long fist and how he could integrated it with take downs. Specifically for him. I don't sense "required" being the cade. He is aware of the dangers of the lead hand and was able to trap the crap out of mine.

If we were sparring, I would most likely attack his lead hand until he didn't want to stick it out or until he counters me. Damage the hand and affect the grappling would be my mindset. But in sparring I wouldn't take it to that level. I also would play hand games with him either.
You still didn't answer the topic. Again, Does Tony's approach to a single leg takedown include grab and pulling the lead arm? I wouldn't think so. Feint or punch, then change levels to the single leg is typical in MMA.

Cejudo's follow step is used for stability, distance deception, entering and explosive power. Cejudo is feinting to hide his follow step, luring a reaction from the opponent, intercepting, then stepping in with a takedown.

 
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Again, Does Tony's approach to a single leg takedown require grab and pulling the lead arm? I wouldn't think so. Feint or punch, then change levels to the single leg is typical in MMA.
Why don't you ask Tony when he move in with a "hip throw", does he require grab and pulling the lead arm?

The wrestling single leg is a special case. Most of the throws require leading arm control.

Judo_leading_arm_control.jpg
 
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Again, KFW's student can side step to the right and throw the overhand left, which is the same.
When Tony kicked my thigh, I didn't feel that this was an option. My main concern was to maintain my knee structure. If I was going to do what you stated then I would need to see the kick coming. If he steps forward with the kick while I'm stepping to the outside of his kick then he could just drop down while I'm punching.

The people in the clips who ate the cross didn't do that. They tried to follow up with a strike instead of following up with grappling.
 

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When Tony kicked my thigh, I didn't feel that this was an option. My main concern was to maintain my knee structure. If I was going to do what you stated then I would need to see the kick coming. If he steps forward with the kick while I'm stepping to the outside of his kick then he could just drop down while I'm punching.
When you use knee stomping, if your opponent moves his leg away, you can just land your foot and close the distance successfully. You have avoided your opponent's kick and you have landed your foot at the right spot that you want.
 
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You still didn't answer the topic. Again, Does Tony's approach to a single leg takedown include grab and pulling the lead arm? I wouldn't think so. Feint or punch, then change levels to the single leg is typical in MMA.

Cejudo's follow step is used for stability, distance deception, entering and explosive power. Cejudo is feinting to hide his follow step, luring a reaction from the opponent, intercepting, then stepping in with a takedown.


The change levels is higher percentage.
 
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I forgot to mention that Tony is taller than me. Usually I don't have to deal with someone taller using a shuffle step, but Tony gave it a try. I was surprised at how much distance a taller person is able to cover.

I knew it was a reality but seeing it first hand made it more than a mental understanding. It felt like that shuffle could be overwhelming.
 

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Okay, so I finally had a chance to put on gloves and do a couple of rounds of medium contact sparring with one of our amateur boxers using the Jow Ga punching methods that @JowGaWolf showed me during our workout. My sparring partner (Joe) has solid technique and is in great shape, but is at the beginning of his fight career and is someone I can handle comfortably using my regular boxing technique.

For purposes of learning, I made myself stick strictly to the moves JowGaWolf showed me and did not allow myself to dip into my normal boxing repertoire. I did not use any kicks, since my sparring partner has no experience with those. I did let my partner know that I would be trying out Kung Fu striking methods and that many of them would not be legal under standard boxing rules. We kept the power down to light/medium levels but we were going full speed and trying to be somewhat competitive.

Results:

For the first minute or so I was pretty much pounding on my partner at will, due to the surprise factor of the unorthodox technique. I tried to pull the punches as much as possible, but the body mechanics of the long fist style swings didn't afford me the fine control over contact that I have with my boxing punches. If we had been going full power without gloves or headgear, I would have had a good chance of knocking him out.

As he got used to the style of attack, he got progressively better at defending: slipping, rolling, ducking, blocking, intercepting, and countering. By the end of the second round, he was definitely outpointing me. Interestingly enough, he didn't come up with any new style of defense for dealing with the Jow Ga attacks. He kept to his standard boxing defense, but tightened it up significantly because he didn't want to get hit by more of those long fist haymakers. Honestly, it was some of the best head movement I've seen from him in sparring.

I was exhausted by the end of the first round, for a few reasons. Firstly, the techniques I was using were mostly power shots, since that's what I've learned of Jow Ga so far. I don't have the kind of cardio I used to, and throwing power shots continuously for two minutes against a partner who is more than 30 years younger than me is very tiring. Secondly, the techniques are new to me and I wasn't as relaxed and efficient as I am with my normal repertoire. Thirdly, I kind of forgot about the little bit of Jow Ga defense I had learned and was pretty much just attacking continuously for 2 rounds. Normally when I spar with Joe, I conserve my energy and just use potshots and counters.

Reflections afterwards:

I spotted a number of moments when my technique was sloppy, but given that I've had a total of one lesson and a little bit of solo practice, it was better than I expected.

I stuck to the same handful of combos that I had practiced previously, and that cost me in the second round once Joe got used to those and started to be able to read them. Afterwards I thought of more ways I could have mixed it up and been less predictable.

The Jow Ga attacks I've learned so far are mostly long range and I had been practicing them with aggressive footwork. This worked well in the beginning, but once Joe got the hang of slipping my strikes and moving in to counterattack at closer range, I started to have problems. Obviously it wouldn't have been a problem if I was allowing myself to use my normal repertoire, but it was awkward using only Jow Ga. Afterwards, I was able to figure out the sort of evasive footwork that I should have been using with the long fist strikes when he pressed forwards, but that's something I'll have to practice. Normally evasive footwork is my preference, but I just hadn't mentally connected it to this style of striking yet. (I'm sure JowGaWolf also has a close range striking toolbox, but I haven't learned those methods yet.)

Next time I need to remember to relax and try my normal defend and counter game while using the long fist strikes in order to not tire myself out. (In fairness, I had already done a few rounds of regular boxing sparring before I tried the Jow Ga, but still I was wasting way too much energy.)

In the long term, this sort of striking will work a lot better for me once it's integrated with the rest of my fighting repertoire. I'm already seeing some ways I could do that. But I want to practice it in isolation first in order to understand it better and work out my technical flaws.
 
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For purposes of learning, I made myself stick strictly to the moves JowGaWolf showed me and did not allow myself to dip into my normal boxing repertoire.
The only way to learn how to use Jow Ga is to use Jow Ga. Once you get it then you'll be able to mix and blend. You are already doing better than probably 95% of Jow Ga students in terms of application. To jump into sparring and to use the techniques without falling back on what's comfortable is a big step and you handle it like a champion. Not surprised that you did, but I'm surprised it was this soon. Your analytical ability will help you big time. What took me a year to learn, will take you about 6 months to get good at it and that's including the tips that I'll share with you.

There are 3 basic punches you'll need in order build a good Jow Ga long fist foundation. Horizontal Wheel Punch, Vertical Wheel Punch and Diagonal Wheel Punch (Not the correct terms but accurate descriptions of the motion.)

Punching combos Examples.
  • Horizontal -> Horizontal
  • Horizontal -> veritcal
  • Vertical -> Vertical
  • Vertical -> Horizontal
I thought about showing it here, but I'm going to just share a personal link with what you need since you are trying it. Which I think is awesome. But until I can make that video here's the basic. concept fo the Horizontal Wheel Punch (formal name in video)

There are three strikes in the video.
1. long fist back fist. (clearing hand)
2. Long fist hook punch
3. Long fist strike to the back (this strike targets the opponent behind you. .The punch lands around the groin and waist level. Think kidney's or groin. If it's at the ribs then it's too high.

Practice the punch like you see in the video. Focus on a relaxed swing. Pads are optional. The first 2 punches are done at your head level. Don't focus on power, just focus on relaxing. The hook punch should stop in front of your face which will help you build the control and accuracy. The way that I sometimes train these punches is that I tape a bendy straw to the wall. I practice swinging my fist over the straw a few inches and below the straw a few inches. I also train hitting the stray. I listen for the sound of my knuckle striking the straw. I don't swing hard. I just focus on swinging relaxed. I use painter's tape to keep from pulling paint off the wall.

That rear punch I just try to get my arm to flow in that direction.

There are 2 things would change in this video:
1. The lead foot needs to take a small step to the outside. This is what you would do in application, but more importantly you won't tear up your knees. Also don't rise like what you are seeing. Stay the same level.

The guy in the video is head of a Jow Ga Association so he knows what he's doing. He's just not showing what needs to be done in terms of application. If someone wanted a quick idea of what they are supposed to be doing with the punch, then this is that type of video.

The power generation for this punch is rear heel down pushing into the punch. If your rear heel slides forward a little, then let it. I was taught not to allow it to do that, but from my use the advantages of doing so are too great not to. The shuffle step is key to all the long fists. The only time I don't shuffle is when that rear foot is going to take a step forward, which at that point my heel needs to come of the ground. There are other exceptions, but this is the bare minimum

My power generation for this punch is more like Push rear leg into slight shuffle while at the same time twisting my waist, then into my shoulder and then my arm and then my forearm that gives it that last whip. But for now, just focus on the relaxing part, don't hunch your shoulders up like in boxing because it will kill the relaxing and slow the movement.
This is what it looks like when it's done wrong. Notice the position of the fist, hitting thumb-side. (which is why the fist is made the way that I showed. Normal boxing fist risks breaking that thumb.) Arm is straight which can cause hyperextension. Face is turned away exposing the side of the head, plus now he can't see his targe it. This is a no look punch for him which makes it more difficult to follow up with another attack in the even that you miss. Left arm is bent, it should be flowing into another attack are ready to defend, knees are straight which kills power. The only one that should be straightish is the rear leg front leg need to be bent. He bends at the waist which is why it looks crooked. That kills power as well. Worst of all he's all balance. The one thing that would have prevented all of this would have been that shuffle step to the outside with the lead leg. Speaking of that. He's still on the center line and that's the last place you want to be with long fist.
sddefault.jpg



But to get out of the weeds.

3 types of wheel punches and the shuffle step will allow you to get to where you want to be without having to make a lot of mistakes to get there.

Here's a similar punch found in boxing. Notice that they aren't off balance. If you feel off balance or awkward, then it's probably because of the footwork. Or you are pulling in trying to play defense and offense at the same time. But from what you described it seems like it may be footwork, since you didn't say anything about worrying about getting hit.
 
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Okay, so I finally had a chance to put on gloves and do a couple of rounds of medium contact sparring with one of our amateur boxers using the Jow Ga punching methods that @JowGaWolf showed me during our workout. My sparring partner (Joe) has solid technique and is in great shape, but is at the beginning of his fight career and is someone I can handle comfortably using my regular boxing technique.

For purposes of learning, I made myself stick strictly to the moves JowGaWolf showed me and did not allow myself to dip into my normal boxing repertoire. I did not use any kicks, since my sparring partner has no experience with those. I did let my partner know that I would be trying out Kung Fu striking methods and that many of them would not be legal under standard boxing rules. We kept the power down to light/medium levels but we were going full speed and trying to be somewhat competitive.

Results:

For the first minute or so I was pretty much pounding on my partner at will, due to the surprise factor of the unorthodox technique. I tried to pull the punches as much as possible, but the body mechanics of the long fist style swings didn't afford me the fine control over contact that I have with my boxing punches. If we had been going full power without gloves or headgear, I would have had a good chance of knocking him out.

As he got used to the style of attack, he got progressively better at defending: slipping, rolling, ducking, blocking, intercepting, and countering. By the end of the second round, he was definitely outpointing me. Interestingly enough, he didn't come up with any new style of defense for dealing with the Jow Ga attacks. He kept to his standard boxing defense, but tightened it up significantly because he didn't want to get hit by more of those long fist haymakers. Honestly, it was some of the best head movement I've seen from him in sparring.

I was exhausted by the end of the first round, for a few reasons. Firstly, the techniques I was using were mostly power shots, since that's what I've learned of Jow Ga so far. I don't have the kind of cardio I used to, and throwing power shots continuously for two minutes against a partner who is more than 30 years younger than me is very tiring. Secondly, the techniques are new to me and I wasn't as relaxed and efficient as I am with my normal repertoire. Thirdly, I kind of forgot about the little bit of Jow Ga defense I had learned and was pretty much just attacking continuously for 2 rounds. Normally when I spar with Joe, I conserve my energy and just use potshots and counters.

Reflections afterwards:

I spotted a number of moments when my technique was sloppy, but given that I've had a total of one lesson and a little bit of solo practice, it was better than I expected.

I stuck to the same handful of combos that I had practiced previously, and that cost me in the second round once Joe got used to those and started to be able to read them. Afterwards I thought of more ways I could have mixed it up and been less predictable.

The Jow Ga attacks I've learned so far are mostly long range and I had been practicing them with aggressive footwork. This worked well in the beginning, but once Joe got the hang of slipping my strikes and moving in to counterattack at closer range, I started to have problems. Obviously it wouldn't have been a problem if I was allowing myself to use my normal repertoire, but it was awkward using only Jow Ga. Afterwards, I was able to figure out the sort of evasive footwork that I should have been using with the long fist strikes when he pressed forwards, but that's something I'll have to practice. Normally evasive footwork is my preference, but I just hadn't mentally connected it to this style of striking yet. (I'm sure JowGaWolf also has a close range striking toolbox, but I haven't learned those methods yet.)

Next time I need to remember to relax and try my normal defend and counter game while using the long fist strikes in order to not tire myself out. (In fairness, I had already done a few rounds of regular boxing sparring before I tried the Jow Ga, but still I was wasting way too much energy.)

In the long term, this sort of striking will work a lot better for me once it's integrated with the rest of my fighting repertoire. I'm already seeing some ways I could do that. But I want to practice it in isolation first in order to understand it better and work out my technical flaws.
Your analysis of what is going on is correct. I can tell just by what you are describing and noticing because it's the same type of stuff I was noticing about myself when I was learning it. I'll ask my son to help me with the application pieces. Then I can add the missing pieces. If you can, send me a video of who your sparring partner was facing you and how he was closing up. That way I can show you the other techniques for dealing with head weaving.

I think at this point you didn't have the 3 wheel punches to play with. that would have given you some variety to work with.. When we met, I showed you how to roll the arm into a back fist. Were you able to try that one?
 
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Tony Dismukes

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When we met, I showed you how to roll the arm into a back fist. Were you able to try that one?
Yep. I got some good use out of that. The combo I used the most was a 4-parter: Left hand backswing to clear the guard/distract -> right hand wheel punch ->roll the right hand into a vertical backfist -> straight punch with the left hand that was hidden behind me. In the beginning I was landing most of the strikes in the combo. But because I didn't have enough variations practiced, eventually my partner started figuring out the pattern and became more successful at evading and countering.

If you feel off balance or awkward, then it's probably because of the footwork. Or you are pulling in trying to play defense and offense at the same time. But from what you described it seems like it may be footwork, since you didn't say anything about worrying about getting hit.
I didn't feel off-balance or awkward at any point. I think my main issues were not relaxing enough, not enough variety in my combos, not adjusting my footwork from aggressive to evasive when my partner pressed forward, and trying to attack continuously for two rounds rather than working any defense and counters. I did get hit a bit, especially in the second round, but that's to be expected when practicing completely new technique against a skilled sparring partner.
 

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throwing power shots continuously for two minutes against a partner who is more than 30 years younger than me is very tiring.
Which training is more important?

1. Test your striking skill against a striker.
2. Test your wrestling skill against a striker.

IMO, 1 is more important during the beginner level training (you test your striking skill). But 2 is more important during the advance level training (you test your MMA skill).
 
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Tony Dismukes

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Which training is more important?

1. Test your striking skill against a striker.
2. Test your wrestling skill against a striker.

IMO, 1 is more important during the beginner level training (you test your striking skill). But 2 is more important during the advance level training (you test your MMA skill).
If you want to be a complete martial artist, it's all important:
  1. Test your striking against a striker
  2. Test your grappling against a striker
  3. Test your grappling against a grappler
  4. Test your striking against a grappler
  5. Test your ability to strike and grapple against someone else who knows how to both strike and grapple
For the session I was discussing, I was trying out certain new striking methods, so I was testing them against a boxer. If it had wanted to grapple and take him down I could have done so easily, but that wasn't the point of the exercise.
 

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