DF: Can BJJ work in a real fight??????

Hanzou

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Your opinion which is not only biased but totally inaccurate, even for the worst of karate schools. To suggest that kata is to make gradings longer than need be is actually offensive. The equivalent would be me saying that all BJJ on the ground was totally useless and a waste of time. It is so stupid that I can't believe you would even state it.
:idunno:

Well actually that wouldn't be a good equivalent since we all know that Bjj works on the ground and isn't a waste of time, and we all know of MA schools that purposely use kata in order to pad training time and belt examinations. Unless you want to pretend that McDojos don't exist.
 

Hanzou

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Well, that's pretty much a no brainer, don't you think? I'm talking about the training time. Unless ones job is to fight professionally, then odds are, you, me, and pretty much everyone else here, falls into the non fighter category. OTOH, that's why I'm not in any rush for anything. I hit to the dojo 2-3 times a week, and depending on the day, the classes are 1hr or 1 1/2. However, while I don't train for 12hrs a day, I do feel confident in my skills.

As for kata...that's not something that we focus on a lot at my dojo. The majority of the time, we're working the basics, ie: blocks, punches, kicks, doing bag work or sparring.

Well I was talking more along the lines of Kman's comment that his yellow belts are equivalent to Bjj purple, brown, and black belts in terms of choking ability.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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The word "style" has no meaning to me. If you spar/wrestle 15 rounds daily, you will be good in the striking/grappling art no matter which style that you may train. The "sport" MA systems do have advantage over "non-sport" MA systems because more "testing" is done in the "sport" environment. After you have used "single leg" to take your opponent down 1000 times, you will know that the chance that your "single leg" may take your opponent down on the 1001 time will be high. It's how you train that's matter.
 
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K-man

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Well actually that wouldn't be a good equivalent since we all know that Bjj works on the ground and isn't a waste of time, and we all know of MA schools that purposely use kata in order to pad training time and belt examinations. Unless you want to pretend that McDojos don't exist.
So now we are style bashing! Good one! And anyone with three fifths of five eighths of bugger all of a brain knows that kata works too so where you saw it as padding others may have recognised its usefulness, even if you didn't understand it, McDojo or not!
 

K-man

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Well I was talking more along the lines of Kman's comment that his yellow belts are equivalent to Bjj purple, brown, and black belts in terms of choking ability.
Good one! Just where did I say that my yellow belts were the equivalent of BJJ belts. I have enormous respect for BJJ belts and in no way would I equate my yellow belts with purple, brown or black belts of BJJ. I'll call you again. :bs1:

What I actually said:
And any one of my yellow belts also has the knowledge to choke someone out and break joints. Is that meant to prove something?

I teach my yellow belts the rear naked choke and they can apply it very well. You don't have to be a student of BJJ to perform an effective rear naked choke!
 

Hanzou

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So now we are style bashing! Good one! And anyone with three fifths of five eighths of bugger all of a brain knows that kata works too so where you saw it as padding others may have recognised its usefulness, even if you didn't understand it, McDojo or not!

Where did I mention a style? All I was saying is that there are many MA schools out there that are churning out subpar martial artists and they're using kata to mask that ineffectiveness. We call them McDojos or Belt factories.

Good one! Just where did I say that my yellow belts were the equivalent of BJJ belts. I have enormous respect for BJJ belts and in no way would I equate my yellow belts with purple, brown or black belts of BJJ. I'll call you again.

You said it when you brought up your yellow belts as a response to my statement that advanced Bjj practitioners excel at choking people out and breaking limbs.

I said:
In short, a Purple, Brown, or Black belt in Bjj is fully capable of choking someone out, and even breaking limbs. A martial artist ripping out throats and testicles? Not a chance.

Your response:
And any one of my yellow belts also has the knowledge to choke someone out and break joints. Is that meant to prove something?

That would be equating your yellow belts to advanced Bjj students. If you had said that your purple, brown, and black belts can also perform chokes and breaks, there wouldn't be an issue. However, you made it a point to state that your novice students can do what advanced Bjj practitioners specialize in.

I teach my yellow belts the rear naked choke and they can apply it very well. You don't have to be a student of BJJ to perform an effective rear naked choke!

FYI: A yellow belt equivalent in Bjj would know a lot more chokes than just the rear-naked choke.
 

K-man

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In my old karate dojo it was used to pad training time, break up stance, kicking, and punching drills, and to make the belt examinations longer than they needed to be.

I would have have thought the term karate was petty style specific.

Where did I mention a style? All I was saying is that there are many MA schools out there that are churning out subpar martial artists and they're using kata to mask that ineffectiveness. We call them McDojos or Belt factories.

You wouldn't know a McDojo if you fell over one. How on earth does teaching kata mask ineffectiveness? Without kata there is no karate! Your lack of understanding of a martial art that you say you had experience of is unbelievable, or was it that they tried to teach you but you didn't understand?


You said it when you brought up your yellow belts as a response to my statement that advanced Bjj practitioners excel at choking people out and breaking limbs.

Good grief! Is English your first language? What you actually said was;

QUOTE=Hanzou
"
There's plenty of vids throughout web showing people getting choked out in fights. Its fairly common, even among people who are not trained because the headlock is so well known among the populace."

and ...

"I'm saying that going for a choke in a SD or a fight is a viable method, since its not difficult to choke someone out, especially if you're trained."

That would be equating your yellow belts to advanced Bjj students. If you had said that your purple, brown, and black belts can also perform chokes and breaks, there wouldn't be an issue. However, you made it a point to state that your novice students can do what advanced Bjj practitioners specialize in.

Firstly, we You must be an exceptionally slow learner if it took you that long to learn a rear naked choke. The skill that I would expect from a highly ranked BJJ practitioner would be applying it against another experienced grappler. Not the choke itself.


FYI: A yellow belt equivalent in Bjj would know a lot more chokes than just the rear-naked choke.

As do my students! What is this a pissing contest? What do you think we do at training? Stand around punching air?
I suspect you are just trolling again but your posts are certainly offensive.
 

MJS

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I agree, Ballen, with just about everything you said. But, here's the question. What do I reasonably need to know? I mean me... a middle aged, regular, boring guy.

That's the real question. It's not about what "works" or not. They all work, as you say. And... depending upon the circumstances, they all DON'T work. That's pretty much the only part where I think we diverge.

Beyond that, self defense for me is 99.9999999% about living a quiet life with my family in a safe, semi-rural area of King County. I don't go to bars, don't drink to excess and try not to be a jerk. I mitigate risk by avoiding a risky lifestyle. I enjoy living quietly and hanging out with my kids and my wife. THAT'S self defense.

If asked whether BJJ is good for self defense, I would say it's good for me. I am relatively fit. I'm active. I can run a bit before I collapse from fatigue. If someone were to grab me, I feel like I can grip fight effectively and free myself. If someone takes me to the ground where I'm on the bottom, I feel comfortable that I can reverse my position and disengage.

So, once again, what do I reasonably need to know? If I am a cop in an urban area? Maybe something different. But I'm not. And neither are most of you guys who are arguing relentlessly that self defense is about fighting multiple, drug crazed attackers in a ring of lava, on a bed of broken glass and dirty needles. If you want to spend your time preparing for that, knock yourselves out. Go ahead. IMO, it's like preparing for a tornado in Seattle. Could it happen? Well... I guess it's POSSIBLE. But how likely? Not very. Could I find myself at the mercy of a gang of thugs? Sure. I guess it's within the realm of possibility. But is it likely? No. Not even remotely.

Regarding specific techniques, it's clear that some of you guys have some gross misunderstandings of what BJJ is and isn't. This same sort of argument from ignorance came up in another thread. As I said then, I don't care what you do. I hope you enjoy your training and presume you're getting what you need from it. Have fun. It obviously makes sense to you. I try to be very careful not to make presumptions about what you train or how you train, and to only comment on what you choose to share. Because, beyond that, I don't know what your style teaches... and even if I did, I don't know what your school teaches. I'm asking you guys to reciprocate. You clearly don't know the first thing about BJJ beyond what seems to me to be self serving propaganda.

I was posting from a phone a few days ago, so I hope the point came through regardless of the typos.

It's like I always say...it's not what you train, it's how you train it. At least that's how I feel....someone else may disagree, and that's fine. :) Like you, I avoid the potential problem areas. When I do go to a potential problem area, I do my best to be as aware of what's going on around me, as I possibly can. No, I'm not paranoid, but it's just general common sense. :) I also live in a fairly quiet town, so while we do have our share of crime, it's nowhere near as bad as some of the larger cities.

As for training on broken glass and against multiples...lol..well, while anything is possible, I don't like to disregard the possibilities of anything. Unless you've got a gun, odds are, against more than 1 person, your success rate certainly goes down, but I feel that if you train for it, the odds of success may go up a bit.

As for the misunderstandings of BJJ...I'd chalk that up to the general assumption of the art. It seems that the majority of the schools you see, are all sport oriented. Now, this isn't to say that someone that trains for sport, can't defend themselves, but if you look at the old saying "you fight like you train", that may be what casts the doubt.
 

MJS

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And it's all black and white? There is no striking in aikido and there's no grappling in karate? Response to an attack has to be appropriate or you are going to get yourself into trouble. Choking may seem humane but choke a drunk who subsequently dies from asphyxiation and you will at very least be facing a manslaughter charge.

A bouncer in Australia is no longer allowed to use chokes as a form of restraint for that reason.

Exactly! Choking is fairly easy to do, but doing it right, to minimize injury is the hard part for someone not trained.
 

Hanzou

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I would have have thought the term karate was petty style specific.

I would have thought the phrase "my karate dojo" implicated only the karate dojo I trained at, not karate in general.

Anyway, the Kata discussion is better served elsewhere. There's no need to drag this discussion off topic.


I suspect you are just trolling again but your posts are certainly offensive.

Or maybe you're just overly sensitive?
 

MJS

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The word "style" has no meaning to me. If you spar/wrestle 15 rounds daily, you will be good in the striking/grappling art no matter which style that you may train. The "sport" MA systems do have advantage over "non-sport" MA systems because more "testing" is done in the "sport" environment. After you have used "single leg" to take your opponent down 1000 times, you will know that the chance that your "single leg" may take your opponent down on the 1001 time will be high. It's how you train that's matter.

Well, that is a very good point. I've said many times, that its very important to pressure test your material. OTOH, I really don't have any desire to enter every competition that comes along. Last year, I fought in my first Kyokushin tournament. Despite a loss, I had a blast! Sure I was sore as hell...lol...but I gained a lot of experience. Wasn't able to fight this year due to a prior, more important engagement, but I do plan on it next year. Then again, as we get older, stepping in the ring may be best suited for someone younger. Outside of that though, I do enjoy kicking the pace up a bit with my training partners. As I said, IMO, testing yourself hard in the training hall, is necessary.
 

MJS

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So now we are style bashing! Good one! And anyone with three fifths of five eighths of bugger all of a brain knows that kata works too so where you saw it as padding others may have recognised its usefulness, even if you didn't understand it, McDojo or not!

Sadly though, it seems to me that the vast majority don't know what kata is really about. For the longest time, when I first started training, I'd inquire about the moves, applications, and was never told. Fortunately, my current teacher does explain the bunkai. From time to time, we do work it in class as well.
 

Hanzou

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Sadly though, it seems to me that the vast majority don't know what kata is really about. For the longest time, when I first started training, I'd inquire about the moves, applications, and was never told. Fortunately, my current teacher does explain the bunkai. From time to time, we do work it in class as well.

The majority of people don't know what kata is about because of poor teachers, but also because we have numerous examples of great martial arts that don't even use kata as a training method. So if you're a student learning kata under a poor teacher, and think its a waste of time, you will go elsewhere and maintain that opinion.
 

Steve

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It's like I always say...it's not what you train, it's how you train it. At least that's how I feel....someone else may disagree, and that's fine. :) Like you, I avoid the potential problem areas. When I do go to a potential problem area, I do my best to be as aware of what's going on around me, as I possibly can. No, I'm not paranoid, but it's just general common sense. :) I also live in a fairly quiet town, so while we do have our share of crime, it's nowhere near as bad as some of the larger cities.

As for training on broken glass and against multiples...lol..well, while anything is possible, I don't like to disregard the possibilities of anything. Unless you've got a gun, odds are, against more than 1 person, your success rate certainly goes down, but I feel that if you train for it, the odds of success may go up a bit.

As for the misunderstandings of BJJ...I'd chalk that up to the general assumption of the art. It seems that the majority of the schools you see, are all sport oriented. Now, this isn't to say that someone that trains for sport, can't defend themselves, but if you look at the old saying "you fight like you train", that may be what casts the doubt.
I'll just point out that there are some, like me, who believe that a sport element makes any style stronger, not weaker. The absence of a combat sport element to a style is, IMO, eliminating a very important element of training. I think judo, kyokushin karate, bjj, wrestling, boxing and MMA benefit from the competitive element, even for those students who choose not to compete.

So, while I agree with most of your post, the presumption that "sport oriented" is a pejorative term is an opinion not universally shared.
 

Steve

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Well, that is a very good point. I've said many times, that its very important to pressure test your material. OTOH, I really don't have any desire to enter every competition that comes along. Last year, I fought in my first Kyokushin tournament. Despite a loss, I had a blast! Sure I was sore as hell...lol...but I gained a lot of experience. Wasn't able to fight this year due to a prior, more important engagement, but I do plan on it next year. Then again, as we get older, stepping in the ring may be best suited for someone younger. Outside of that though, I do enjoy kicking the pace up a bit with my training partners. As I said, IMO, testing yourself hard in the training hall, is necessary.
As you say, there are a lot of benefits to competing, regardless of how often you choose to do it.
 

Steve

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The majority of people don't know what kata is about because of poor teachers, but also because we have numerous examples of great martial arts that don't even use kata as a training method. So if you're a student learning kata under a poor teacher, and think its a waste of time, you will go elsewhere and maintain that opinion.
I think we start entering shaky ground when we speculate about what most people do or don't do. I haven't met the majority of people who train in martial arts. I've only met a few. I have my own opinions about kata, but frankly, that's more about preference than anything else.

In BJJ, we drill a technique over and over. I have drills I can do alone and drills I can do with a partner. I think if you look at gynastica natural or some of the crazy drills people do to develop skills and habits appropriate for BJJ, it's very similar to kata. And the partner drills are like one-step or two-step drills.

The difference, IMO, isn't in the kata. It's in the pressure testing and continuous sparring AFTER the drilling. A traditional school with kata where the students spar and pressure test their training will likely be a pretty decent school. While you and I might believe that kata is less efficient than drilling a technique in isolation, not everyone's in a hurry. :)
 

MJS

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The majority of people don't know what kata is about because of poor teachers, but also because we have numerous examples of great martial arts that don't even use kata as a training method. So if you're a student learning kata under a poor teacher, and think its a waste of time, you will go elsewhere and maintain that opinion.

I'll agree with that for the most part. I agree that some teachers probably don't know the meaning behind the moves of the kata. All of the arts that I've either done or currently do, have kata. However, the focus on kata wasn't as high as compared to other areas of training. Personally, I don't devote as much time on it, but I have and can take various parts of kata and apply them to self defense. But, then again, just like various weapons, training kata, can be a part of the history/tradition of an art. Is it common to see someone walking the street with a sword? No, and if we did, we'd probably call the cops. Yet in some traditional arts, swordwork is part of the tradition.
 

MJS

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I'll just point out that there are some, like me, who believe that a sport element makes any style stronger, not weaker. The absence of a combat sport element to a style is, IMO, eliminating a very important element of training. I think judo, kyokushin karate, bjj, wrestling, boxing and MMA benefit from the competitive element, even for those students who choose not to compete.

So, while I agree with most of your post, the presumption that "sport oriented" is a pejorative term is an opinion not universally shared.

Oh, I'm not against sport. In fact, I feel that one of the major advantages sport arts have over some of the more traditional arts, is the pressure testing, aliveness/resistance, and contact. I think that the notion that sport doesnt prep one for the real world, is, as I said, one of the factors. I think some may think that because it may not address various attacks that we see defenses for in other arts, that may be another. But then we hear some say that against a knife, there's no defense, so if that is in fact true, then technically, pure fighting skill would be all that's needed, no?

FWIW, I don't necessarily share the same views that I mentioned, just stating my opinion on what I feel are the views that some others may have of sporting arts.
 

K-man

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But, then again, just like various weapons, training kata, can be a part of the history/tradition of an art. Is it common to see someone walking the street with a sword? No, and if we did, we'd probably call the cops. Yet in some traditional arts, swordwork is part of the tradition.
In his later years Ueshiba devoted his attention to the sword. It is interesting in aikido that many of the techniques, and I'm talking of the grappling element here although it applies to the throws as well, work best if you imagine you have a sword in your hands and you are cutting with it. So we do some sword work in aikido that some may consider useless or unnecessary but in reality is an integral part of understanding the art. I view kata in a similar way.
:asian:
 

ballen0351

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In BJJ, we drill a technique over and over. I have drills can do alone and drills I can do with a partner. I think if you look at gynastica natural or some of the crazy drills people do to develop skills and habits appropriate for BJJ, it's very similar to kata. And the partner drills are like one-step or two-step drills.
Yes kata is very similar to drilling techniques. In a kata you have strikes, counters, moving, deflecting, throws, grappling, all wrapped up along with training proper breathing and keeping calm and relaxed. If all you do kata for is to learn the sequence to pass a test your missing what its really about.
The difference, IMO, isn't in the kata. It's in the pressure testing and continuous sparring AFTER the drilling. A traditional school with kata where the students spar and pressure test their training will likely be a pretty decent school. While you and I might believe that kata is less efficient than drilling a technique in isolation, not everyone's in a hurry. :)

I think that last line is a great point. Karate it me is a life long exercise. Im not in a race to learn 50 different chokes in 6 months. I take time and break down every step in a kata and think ok why do i step left here or drop to this stance there. You cant always rely on a teacher to tell you everything sometimes you need to think of stuff for yourself
 

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