Defending your country is not murder.

[Makalakumu]

Fear.

The Taliban have shown time and again that they will not hesitate to use violence against those who do not follow their ideology.

I've read and it was reiterated by an Afghan doctor who spoke at UH, that one of the reasons people in Afghan and Pakistan follow the Taliban is because they actually represent a stabilizing force. Particularly, the courts and the government were so corrupt in the past, that any kind of justice was impossible. Sharia provides something Afghan society that they haven't had before. So, that is one of the reasons that the men join, that and the Taliban represent a group that is fighting an aggressive force that has killed a lot of innocent people. Therefore, revenge is also a huge factor.

I really wonder how many people actually believe in the Taliban's version of Islam? My guess is that it's probably similar to any other extreme religious group. Therefore, as soon as the outside forces quit destabilizing the society, quit providing weapons and money to the crazies, Afghan society will start to sort it's way out.

 

[Tez3]

Why do you think the people in Afghan keep following the Taliban? What is the motivation from your perspective?

Are you asking what I think or asking because you don't know? You can see the fear in people's eyes when they talk about the Taliban, like most dictatorships whether they are left, right or religious the Taliban rule by fear. Following the Taliban isn't exactly the word I'd use btw. I wouldn't say they even tolerate them, they suffer under them however.
The history of Afghanistan is a complicated one, for one thing it's a 'made up' country, it didn't exist before America and the UK 'invented' it, as they did with most of the Middle East. There are a great many tribes living in that area all of whom go to war with each other at various times, Islam isn't even the 'native' religion there, it's an imposed one on everyone who wasn't already a Muslim. The Taliban aren't a bunch of farmers defending their country they are a highly organised, motivated professional army of religious fanatics ( not all are Afghan either) determined to have everyone under their control and I mean everyone! this sort of regime isn't new in this world. Couple this with the warlike tendencies of the tribal chiefs, the greed of the politicians and the money the drug growers get you have a lovely mix of the most undesirable 'leaders' you could ever hope to have in a country.

 

[Makalakumu]

Are you asking what I think or asking because you don't know?

I'm asking about your opinion, I have my own that is informed by various sources. Thus far, we're not really that far apart.

That said, I think you have underestimated the extent to which the US government has supported the Taliban. This government was in direct communication with the Taliban up to August of 2001. They provided money and weapons until shortly before. This was all part of Unocal's "Pipelinistan" project. The Taliban were never willing to work with the governments and corporations, other than to accept their money and weapons, and were eventually told in August 2001, "Accept this carpet of gold or accept our carpet of bombs." The Taliban refused and 9/11 provided the excuse. This government refused the Taliban's offer to turn over Osama Bin Laden. This government let OBL escape at Tora Bora.

I believe that it's all been an excuse to clean out the Taliban from the start. Even Al Qaeda had strong CIA ties. OBL's CIA alias was "Tim Osman" and this government flew him to the US in 1984. FBI whistle blower Sibel Edmunds, a translator, reported on conversations this government was having with Al Qaeda up through September of 2001. This is what she told the 9/11 commission.

http://www.justacitizen.com/articles_documents/Letter_to_Kean.pdf

Over three years ago, more than four months prior to the September 11 terrorist
attacks, in April 2001, a long-term FBI informant/asset who had been providing the
bureau with information since 1990, provided two FBI agents and a translator with
specific information regarding a terrorist attack being planned by Osama Bin Laden. This
asset/informant was previously a high- level intelligence officer in Iran in charge of
intelligence from Afghanistan. Through his contacts in Afghanistan he received
information that: 1) Osama Bin Laden was planning a major terrorist attack in the United
States targeting 4-5 major cities, 2) the attack was going to involve airplanes, 3) some of
the individuals in charge of carrying out this attack were already in place in the United
States, 4) the attack was going to be carried out soon, in a few months.

One hand of the government discovered what the other was doing.

This is why former Unocal spokesperson Hamid Karzai runs the government in Kabul. This is how this whole thing started. It has nothing to do with defending our country and it raises to painful moral questions for everyone involved on the ground. I don't understand why anyone would want to serve governments who do things like this?

And when you take this into account, the whole picture gets darker and darker.

http://www.livescience.com/16315-rare-earth-elements-afghanistan.html

Recent exploration of rare volcanic rocks in the rugged, dangerous desert of southern Afghanistan has identified world-class concentrations of rare earth elements, the prized group of raw materials that are essential in the manufacture of many modern technologies, from electric cars to solar panels. So far, geologists say, they have mapped one million metric tons of these critical elements, which include lanthanum, cerium and neodymium.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-spoils-of-war-afghanistan-s-multibillion-dollar-heroin-trade/91

Heroin is a multibillion dollar business supported by powerful interests, which requires a steady and secure commodity flow. One of the “hidden” objectives of the war was precisely to restore the CIA sponsored drug trade to its historical levels and exert direct control over the drug routes.


Immediately following the October 2001 invasion, opium markets were restored. Opium prices spiraled. By early 2002, the opium price (in dollars/kg) was almost 10 times higher than in 2000.


In 2001, under the Taliban opiate production stood at 185 tons, increasing to 3400 tons in 2002 under the US sponsored puppet regime of President Hamid Karzai.
While highlighting Karzai’s patriotic struggle against the Taliban, the media fails to mention that Karzai collaborated with the Taliban. He had also been on the payroll of a major US oil company, UNOCAL. In fact, since the mid-1990s, Hamid Karzai had acted as a consultant and lobbyist for UNOCAL in negotiations with the Taliban. According to the Saudi newspaper Al-Watan:


“Karzai has been a Central Intelligence Agency covert operator since the 1980s. He collaborated with the CIA in funneling U.S. aid to the Taliban as of 1994 when the Americans had secretly and through the Pakistanis [specifically the ISI] supported the Taliban’s assumption of power.” (quoted in Karen Talbot, U.S. Energy Giant Unocal Appoints Interim Government in Kabul, Global Outlook, No. 1, Spring 2002. p. 70. See also BBC Monitoring Service, 15 December 2001)

This drug trade amounts to 500 billion dollars.

So, why are people continuing to die in Afghanistan? Do the rules of engagement even matter? Is anyone getting their limbs blown off and thier lives shortened to "defend" their country? What should the poor people who bought the governments lies about Afghanistan do in response to the truth?

Like I said above, I really hope those friends of yours get released. They are victims of a massive propaganda campaign that landed them on the wrong side. I also really hope this informations gets out to soldiers so they can make different decisions about their futures. Who wants to serve a government that does this? Democracy, so far, has been unable to end this, therefore, it's time for it's time for individuals to face the truth and act, IMHO.

 

[Tez3]

I'm asking about your opinion, I have my own that is informed by various sources. Thus far, we're not really that far apart.

That said, I think you have underestimated the extent to which the US government has supported the Taliban. This government was in direct communication with the Taliban up to August of 2001. They provided money and weapons until shortly before. This was all part of Unocal's "Pipelinistan" project. The Taliban were never willing to work with the governments and corporations, other than to accept their money and weapons, and were eventually told in August 2001, "Accept this carpet of gold or accept our carpet of bombs." The Taliban refused and 9/11 provided the excuse. This government refused the Taliban's offer to turn over Osama Bin Laden. This government let OBL escape at Tora Bora.

I doubt I have underestimated the 'support' the American government has given the Taliban at all. The Taliban would not be the force they are without the American help they received.

I believe that it's all been an excuse to clean out the Taliban from the start. Even Al Qaeda had strong CIA ties. OBL's CIA alias was "Tim Osman" and this government flew him to the US in 1984. FBI whistle blower Sibel Edmunds, a translator, reported on conversations this government was having with Al Qaeda up through September of 2001. This is what she told the 9/11 commission.

http://www.justacitizen.com/articles_documents/Letter_to_Kean.pdf



One hand of the government discovered what the other was doing.

This is why former Unocal spokesperson Hamid Karzai runs the government in Kabul. This is how this whole thing started. It has nothing to do with defending our country and it raises to painful moral questions for everyone involved on the ground. I don't understand why anyone would want to serve governments who do things like this?

The British forces don't serve a government, they serve the Crown. The 'whole thing' started a lot earlier than you seem to think, this is our fourth Afghan war ( we've won one, lost one, drawn one, the current one is score pending) the very existance of Afghanistan as a state is due to American and British interference. the Great Game has been going on there for a long time, even before the Russian Revolution.

And when you take this into account, the whole picture gets darker and darker.

http://www.livescience.com/16315-rare-earth-elements-afghanistan.html



http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-spoils-of-war-afghanistan-s-multibillion-dollar-heroin-trade/91



This drug trade amounts to 500 billion dollars.

So, why are people continuing to die in Afghanistan? Do the rules of engagement even matter? Is anyone getting their limbs blown off and thier lives shortened to "defend" their country? What should the poor people who bought the governments lies about Afghanistan do in response to the truth?

I think you should realise that the majoirty of civilians killed in Afghanistan are killed by the Taliban still, suicide bombs, ambushes, attacks on children in schools, landmines, IEDs etc. The Taliban is still responsible for the majority of deaths there.

Like I said above, I really hope those friends of yours get released. They are victims of a massive propaganda campaign that landed them on the wrong side. I also really hope this informations gets out to soldiers so they can make different decisions about their futures. Who wants to serve a government that does this? Democracy, so far, has been unable to end this, therefore, it's time for it's time for individuals to face the truth and act, IMHO.

The Marines are out on bail. They aren't victims of anything other than a government failing to keep their side of the covenant. As I said, their oath of loyalty is to the Crown not any government. One solution would be for your country to leave other countries alone if they decide they want to be communist or socialist, it's your continued policy of anti communism that has caused much of this. Your government in it's fear has interfered with so many countries. communism was actually doing some good in Afghanistan until your government decided to interfere.
I think you need to stop blaming service personnel for what governments are doing, a soldier serves his/her country, they put their lives on the line so you don't have to. If their government has let them down shame on the government and the politicians but it's not the soldiers fault that the war isn't a just one, they are being true and loyal to their country, that they die for others stupidity is wrong but it's ever been thus. Soldiers know this and for you to disrepect them by making them out to be ignorant dupes is shameful to be honest. I think if you understood military people rather than despising them as 'the running dogs' of their governments you might go someoways to understanding what is going on from their side of the Afghan conflict. You would see that despite being called to fight Her Majesty's enemies which the Taliban are, you would see that they also seek to protect and help those they can. Far too easy to blame soldiers than look and see where the blame really lies.
I'm not sure what lies you think we've been told and what lies we are supposed to believe, no one in the British military believes anything any government or monarch has told them. Our Navy is a thousand years old, our standing army nearly as old, in all that time our soldiers and sailors have never believed anything told to them by the powers that be, they defend our country and believe me they have their eyes wide open, they are far from stupid. They know who and what they are.

 

[Tgace]

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

 

[Makalakumu]

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

So, are the Taliban a bigger threat to the Constitution than the NDAA? How about the TSA? How do you feel about serving a corrupt government that is hell bent on undermining our founding principles?

 

[Makalakumu]

The Marines are out on bail. They aren't victims of anything other than a government failing to keep their side of the covenant. As I said, their oath of loyalty is to the Crown not any government. One solution would be for your country to leave other countries alone if they decide they want to be communist or socialist, it's your continued policy of anti communism that has caused much of this. Your government in it's fear has interfered with so many countries. communism was actually doing some good in Afghanistan until your government decided to interfere.
I think you need to stop blaming service personnel for what governments are doing, a soldier serves his/her country, they put their lives on the line so you don't have to. If their government has let them down shame on the government and the politicians but it's not the soldiers fault that the war isn't a just one, they are being true and loyal to their country, that they die for others stupidity is wrong but it's ever been thus. Soldiers know this and for you to disrepect them by making them out to be ignorant dupes is shameful to be honest. I think if you understood military people rather than despising them as 'the running dogs' of their governments you might go someoways to understanding what is going on from their side of the Afghan conflict. You would see that despite being called to fight Her Majesty's enemies which the Taliban are, you would see that they also seek to protect and help those they can. Far too easy to blame soldiers than look and see where the blame really lies.
I'm not sure what lies you think we've been told and what lies we are supposed to believe, no one in the British military believes anything any government or monarch has told them. Our Navy is a thousand years old, our standing army nearly as old, in all that time our soldiers and sailors have never believed anything told to them by the powers that be, they defend our country and believe me they have their eyes wide open, they are far from stupid. They know who and what they are.

You would never apply this standard to any other organization. If you worked for a corporation that designed a product, discovered that this product was killing people in droves, and continued to design similar products for that company, you'd be responsible for all that followed from your actions. Why is it different if you put on the government's costume?

 

[Tez3]

You would never apply this standard to any other organization. If you worked for a corporation that designed a product, discovered that this product was killing people in droves, and continued to design similar products for that company, you'd be responsible for all that followed from your actions. Why is it different if you put on the government's costume?

I have never put on any government's uniform, the uniform I wear now is the Queen's. The oath of loyalty I swore when I was in RAF and the one I swore for my current job are to the Queen. The service of the Crown is not 'any' organisation, it's not even an organisation, it's an idea, a belief, it is service to one's country so there is a different standard to be maintained. We aren't citizens by the way, we are subjects of Her Majesty, when you takes the Queen's Shilling you agree to obey the orders of the Sovereign and her representatives. You are allowed, indeed, expected not to obey illegal orders which means you obey the Geneva Convention which we signed and the Rules of Engagement.

 

[Tez3]

Our current government is a completely different one from the government that took us into the Afghan war, it's generally agreed here that pulling the troops out without an end strategy was unwise and would mean the deaths of the service personnel so would have been for nothing. We now have a date for leaving, in fact our Brigadier here is hoping that he can send half our Brigade home after Christmas...six months early. You may wish to read his mission statement of how he sees their job out there.

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...areToContinueAfghanistanTransitionProcess.htm

 

[Bob Hubbard]

At the risk of pointing out the obvious, I must say that for someone to say "leave other countries alone" when theirs once controlled one of the largest colonial systems, which were maintained by force of arms for a good portion of the 19th and 20th century is interesting. Of course, you can argue that we've replaced British Colonialism with American Colonialism. Though that might be a separate thread.

 

[Makalakumu]

I have never put on any government's uniform, the uniform I wear now is the Queen's. The oath of loyalty I swore when I was in RAF and the one I swore for my current job are to the Queen. The service of the Crown is not 'any' organisation, it's not even an organisation, it's an idea, a belief, it is service to one's country so there is a different standard to be maintained. We aren't citizens by the way, we are subjects of Her Majesty, when you takes the Queen's Shilling you agree to obey the orders of the Sovereign and her representatives. You are allowed, indeed, expected not to obey illegal orders which means you obey the Geneva Convention which we signed and the Rules of Engagement.

Okay, here is an another example.

A person makes a product for a corporation and they know it kills people. Do they get an exemption from moral responsibility if they claim they serve a higher standard and intended something different?

That said, doesn't the Queen "approve" of every government? Doesn't she still retain the power to dissolve. The government call elections if it doesn't please her? Don't the governor generals in the common wealth nations retain that same power?

 

[arnisador]

It's a silly distinction--but then, having a Queen is itself a medieval mentality. These people went to war. Civilized nations have rules about how war is conducted. We insisted on it with the Germans--others will demand it of us in the West now. They're going to have a trial. Outrage pre-trial is simply its own form of pre-judgment: No soldier can ever do anything wrong. When I taught at West Point a documentary on the My Lai massacre played on endless loop on every classroom TV that wasn't turned off for the lecture--a reminder of what can go wrong.

 

[Sukerkin]

At the risk of pointing out the obvious, I must say that for someone to say "leave other countries alone" when theirs once controlled one of the largest colonial systems, which were maintained by force of arms for a good portion of the 19th and 20th century is interesting. Of course, you can argue that we've replaced British Colonialism with American Colonialism. Though that might be a separate thread.

Different Age with different rules, my friend. However, power abhors a vacuum and inconsistency in the application of strength often creates little political vacuums in which vile regimes fester. Even when external power is applied strongly and with wide consent of those governed from outside, when that power is removed disaster is often the result - look for the thread I started on Partition to see some horrid examples of that.

 

[Makalakumu]

It's a silly distinction--but then, having a Queen is itself a medieval mentality. These people went to war. Civilized nations have rules about how war is conducted. We insisted on it with the Germans--others will demand it of us in the West now. They're going to have a trial. Outrage pre-trial is simply its own form of pre-judgment: No soldier can ever do anything wrong. When I taught at West Point a documentary on the My Lai massacre played on endless loop on every classroom TV that wasn't turned off for the lecture--a reminder of what can go wrong.

What if all of that is just a false distinction? What if it is just rationalizing a general pattern of immoral behavior?

"Rules of War," sounds like ******** ethics to me.

 

[arnisador]

Should France have fought back against Germany in WWII, or just rolled over? What would you have suggested for them?

 

[Makalakumu]

Should France have fought back against Germany in WWII, or just rolled over? What would you have suggested for them?

If you are aggressed against, you defend yourself. The same standard we apply in the dojo, in real life self defense situations, can also apply in foreign policy. Also, the same standard that we hold defenders to, in regards to the level of force that you can respond with, should also apply. People need to hold to the principles of not initiating aggression and to owning the results of their actions. One could argue that this is the system we have now. However, how is this possible in an environment where the ruling classes can create lies, myths and distortions about events and manipulate their citizens into war?

 

[Tez3]

It's all well and good spouting high flying statements such as we shouldn't be the aggressors etc and it's all well and good playing at seeing conspiracy theories everywhere. I wonder if people who do go on about how the 'ruling classes' manipulate the rest realise how patronising they sound? They sound every bit as partonising and irritating as the religious zealots who declaim to all that the only way to salvation is to believe as they do, they are..of course..the only ones who are right, the only ones who know the truth, everyone else is blundering around in the dark. None of these people conspiracy theorists and religious zealots alike actually live in the real world. It must comoft them a great deal to believe that they alone have the 'truth' and the rest are sheep wandering in the dark. So often they all refer to the people as sheep which is odd because they actually know little about sheep and how clever in reality they are, rams will kill to defend their flocks, we had a chap killed up here a little while ago, ewes will attack dogs to defend their lambs, those horns can do a lot of damage. Sheep do flock together because there's strength in numbers and they have an intelligence few will admit they have. One should always be careful about making assumptions.
http://www.metro.co.uk/weird/856101-sheep-smarter-than-we-previously-thought-says-scientist

The British forces weren't manipulated into war, they were sent to war, that's their job, it's as simple as that. They serve their country and the idea is that their country then looks after them and theirs. It's the way things are and no one actually wants to change that, it's been that way for longer than America has been a country, as long as the UK looks after the wounded and the families of the fallen that's the covenant held. What we are saying here is that the government is not holding their side of the covenant, that's what the demonstrations and protests are about. The military does it's duty and the government does it's, it really is as simple as that.
We aren't much for all these conspiracy theories here, we know what politicians are that's why we laugh at them and lampoon them so much, we are well aware of the political machinations that go on, we know what businesses do, after all and I'm not being patronising here, we're had a couple of thousand of years or more at this. Makalakumu, we are wiser to what goes on than you imagine, we've literally been there, seen it, done it, don't preach to the British about power, aggression and conspiracies, we've seen them all. We've seen the royal dynasties come and go, invaders come and go or stay and be assimilated, we've had the finanical barons, the empire builders, the want to take over the worlders. We know who our government is made up of, we know who the Opposition parties are, we consider them all equally useless as we do solicitors, lawyers, journalists, estate agents and everyone on the X Factor. Ruling classes? You're having a larf mate, they are transparent, they may not think it but they are, you mustn't mistake people's apparent disinterest with them being led by the nose, far from it, you'd be surprised how much power the British people have when they rouse themselves and they do from time to time and oh the U Turns governments do then! You may deride people but the British people are a sleeping tiger pull it's tail once too often and you'll see what happens. It's also a far from stupid tiger.
We pay the government to sort things out for us, if they don't do it the way we like we elect another one. anyone can stand for Parliament, you don't need loads of money, you don't even need a party to get you in. You just put a couple of hundred pounds down as a deposit ( you get it back if you don't get a certain percentage of votes) and go off and campaign. You have a good chance actually og getting in if you aren't a loony. Then you are part of our Parliament with a vital vote to help keep the government under control, we have a good system of checks and balances in our Parliamentary system, the Queen being head of the country means no would be dictators.
As I said and it doesn't demonise any one, our country is very different from yours and also very different from Afghanistan.

 

[Makalakumu]

It's all well and good spouting high flying statements such as we shouldn't be the aggressors etc and it's all well and good playing at seeing conspiracy theories everywhere. I wonder if people who do go on about how the 'ruling classes' manipulate the rest realise how patronising they sound? They sound every bit as partonising and irritating as the religious zealots who declaim to all that the only way to salvation is to believe as they do, they are..of course..the only ones who are right, the only ones who know the truth, everyone else is blundering around in the dark. None of these people conspiracy theorists and religious zealots alike actually live in the real world. It must comoft them a great deal to believe that they alone have the 'truth' and the rest are sheep wandering in the dark. So often they all refer to the people as sheep which is odd because they actually know little about sheep and how clever in reality they are, rams will kill to defend their flocks, we had a chap killed up here a little while ago, ewes will attack dogs to defend their lambs, those horns can do a lot of damage. Sheep do flock together because there's strength in numbers and they have an intelligence few will admit they have. One should always be careful about making assumptions.
http://www.metro.co.uk/weird/856101-sheep-smarter-than-we-previously-thought-says-scientist

The British forces weren't manipulated into war, they were sent to war, that's their job, it's as simple as that. They serve their country and the idea is that their country then looks after them and theirs. It's the way things are and no one actually wants to change that, it's been that way for longer than America has been a country, as long as the UK looks after the wounded and the families of the fallen that's the covenant held. What we are saying here is that the government is not holding their side of the covenant, that's what the demonstrations and protests are about. The military does it's duty and the government does it's, it really is as simple as that.
We aren't much for all these conspiracy theories here, we know what politicians are that's why we laugh at them and lampoon them so much, we are well aware of the political machinations that go on, we know what businesses do, after all and I'm not being patronising here, we're had a couple of thousand of years or more at this. Makalakumu, we are wiser to what goes on than you imagine, we've literally been there, seen it, done it, don't preach to the British about power, aggression and conspiracies, we've seen them all. We've seen the royal dynasties come and go, invaders come and go or stay and be assimilated, we've had the finanical barons, the empire builders, the want to take over the worlders. We know who our government is made up of, we know who the Opposition parties are, we consider them all equally useless as we do solicitors, lawyers, journalists, estate agents and everyone on the X Factor. Ruling classes? You're having a larf mate, they are transparent, they may not think it but they are, you mustn't mistake people's apparent disinterest with them being led by the nose, far from it, you'd be surprised how much power the British people have when they rouse themselves and they do from time to time and oh the U Turns governments do then! You may deride people but the British people are a sleeping tiger pull it's tail once too often and you'll see what happens. It's also a far from stupid tiger.
We pay the government to sort things out for us, if they don't do it the way we like we elect another one. anyone can stand for Parliament, you don't need loads of money, you don't even need a party to get you in. You just put a couple of hundred pounds down as a deposit ( you get it back if you don't get a certain percentage of votes) and go off and campaign. You have a good chance actually og getting in if you aren't a loony. Then you are part of our Parliament with a vital vote to help keep the government under control, we have a good system of checks and balances in our Parliamentary system, the Queen being head of the country means no would be dictators.
As I said and it doesn't demonise any one, our country is very different from yours and also very different from Afghanistan.

Rubbish. On one level you totally accept the things I'm saying, but on another you've done a complete turn. It's a contradiction and you know it.

We solve the moral contradictions by dispelling our illusions. Our illusions of religion, our illusions of nationalism, our illusions of authority are crafted for social control by evil people. They can be nightmares or comfortable phantasms that hide the nature of reality from your eyes and the results will always be the same. The illusions will cause you to initiate force against the innocent and have no responsibility for your own actions. Dispel your illusions. Then, stop serving evil. Withhold your consent from the people you know are engaging in evil.

This is the only way I think people can actually make this situation better. Dispel your illusions. Withhold your consent.

 

[Tez3]

Rubbish. On one level you totally accept the things I'm saying, but on another you've done a complete turn. It's a contradiction and you know it.

We solve the moral contradictions by dispelling our illusions. Our illusions of religion, our illusions of nationalism, our illusions of authority are crafted for social control by evil people. They can be nightmares or comfortable phantasms that hide the nature of reality from your eyes and the results will always be the same. The illusions will cause you to initiate force against the innocent and have no responsibility for your own actions. Dispel your illusions. Then, stop serving evil. Withhold your consent from the people you know are engaging in evil.

This is the only way I think people can actually make this situation better. Dispel your illusions. Withhold your consent.

Oh dear, dispelling our illusions eh, and of course you are the only one that is right and the only one who can see the truth aren't you? You realise you come over like a complete numpty don't you? I mean that kindly btw, you must be one of the most naive people I've ever come across, it's sweet in a way, this belief that if we are all nice to each other everything will come out fine. Well I'm afraid, we aren't nice to each other, I'm not nice, the world isn't nice, it's a big bad world out there.
When you say we are exerting force against the innocent I assume you think the Taliban, Al Queda, the IRA and all the other terrorist groups are really just misunderstood so just need a cuddle and everything will be fine. You do realise of course that the reason you can think all this is because men and women died so that you could? Men and women fought for your freedom to be this airy fairy and patronising towards the rest of us? Are you sure it's us that have illusions or that perhaps you see the world through glasses that are tinged with the colour of feeling superior in the way the god botherers do. I'm sure you feel you are a voice crying in the wilderness but the wilderness is nature and nature is red in tooth and claw so be careful.
Please don't insult my intelligence or anyone elses by mouthing what is basically a formulaic mantra I've heard by many a hippy starting in the 1960s. It's just mouthing words, 'dispel your illusions' is a nonsense, you don't suggest any practical help for anyone. I sponsor a little Muslim girl in Bangladesh so she can go to school and make a better life for herself, it's a small thing but something anyone can do, it's a small step and changing the world will be done by people taking small steps not blowhards mouthing well worn cliched banalities. And it is banal and quite tiresome actually being preached at by someone who refused to face the realities of life. Oh how I wish I could ignore the realities of life, how nice would that be. Everybody, hold hands and be nice to each other.... I wish!

Please do come up with something other than this conspiracy theory junk, it's laughable, evil men manipulating the innocent. Very few people are innocent, we are well aware of business tactics, using money etc etc, why do you think such things are called Machiavellian? Great Britain is the country of the Tudors, the Plantagenets, the Seymours,the Boleyns, the Percy's, the Whigs, Francis Wolsingham, etc etc. Then there's the Medicis, the Borgias etc in Europe when things were really interesting. What on earth do you think you can teach us about conspiracies, plotting and manipulation lol? We've been doing it since the year dot! You think we don't know what goes on, do you think we always care?
Here's an early conspiracy for you http://www.educationscotland.gov.uk...ianspictsromans/barbarianconspiracy/index.asp

Nice try grasshopper but you have to go a long way before you can catch people who have been around a lot longer than you out.

 

[Makalakumu]

Lol. Allow me to sum this up. Conspiracies don't exist, but the British are the masters of them. Also, evil people don't rule, but we're all fallen in the end.

Illusions.

If you want things to change, give up the illusions of religion, of nationalism, and of violent authority. Then, withhold your consent. That is as practical as it gets as far as making things better goes.