Dealing with the Homeless

[Nightingale]

can you get by in America on a McDonald's wage? Absolutely not. Frankly, I couldn't get by on a teacher's salary, which is considerably higher. I took home about $1600 per month teaching. My rent is $910.00, and I don't live in a supernice place... its in a safe neighborhood, which is really all I was looking for.

The median rent for a 1 bedroom apartment in california is $747.00. The national average is $602.00. (HUD)

California minimum wage is $6.75... this means that the person in question is only making $1080.00 per month... assuming at least 20% goes to uncle sam... this leaves the person in question with $865.00... subtract $747.50, and this leaves the person with only $117.17 left to:

pay the electric bill....minimum of like $35.00
pay the water bill... usually $25.00 (apartments don't usually include this anymore)
eat
pay for transportation to work...and california's public transportation system sucks.


Also... all this is assuming that the person could even find an apartment complex to rent to them... most complexes want you to make at least three times the monthly rent before taxes... so, even if he had a McDonalds job, he STILL would be homeless!

Sure... perhaps he could just rent a room somewhere.... average price for that in california is around $400.00... not a whole lot better... AND, that's assuming that someone would willingly share their home with someone from the streets... again, not likely.

just something to think about... and that was median rent for ALL of california... not just southern... southern california's median rent is around $1000. San Francisco's is even higher.

 

[arnisador]

Even more than the rent per se--which one can manage by taking a less desirable place, roommates, etc.--is the deposit. If you need to give first and last months' rent or some similar deposit on such a wage, that's a real problem. Living in cars or motels is a common solution.

And once again, there's the vicious cycle. If you have to live in a motel it may well be more expensive, plus you don't have a real refrigerator or kitchen so you spend more on food than if you could buy larger quantities and refrigerate/freeze them or boil water and make macaroni and cheese like a college student often can. If you're living in a car you may be eating fast food--once again, there goes a shot at saving.

In any event, many people who are homeless are working one or two jobs and still not getting into the system.

The unemployed street person who is using alcohol or drugs and panhandles as a means of income isn't representative of all homeless people. If you ate a restaurant or stayed at a hotel today you may have been served by a homeless person.

Yes, be wary around the street person you meet--clearly they are in desperate straits, and they may be mentally ill. Take your hands out of your pockets, keep your eyes up, and speak firmly if you speak to such a person. Still, one can be both firm and polite.

 

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Originally posted by nightingale8472
can you get by in America on a McDonald's wage? Absolutely not.
...
Also... all this is assuming that the person could even find an apartment complex to rent to them... most complexes want you to make at least three times the monthly rent before taxes... so, even if he had a McDonalds job, he STILL would be homeless!

Thanks for the dose of reality. That's one of endless reasons why the length of the want-ads is irrelevent to any particular individual. In fact, there are few communities with services providing the homeless with access to a phone number or address to use for contacts with potential employers.

I'm not trying to blame society or glorify the homeless as doing everything possible against impossible odds, but again ... walk in their shoes ... listen to what they and the professionals who work with them say. Not the flaming liberals who want to toss them scraps at the taxpayers expense, but the people in the trenches that really are trying to make a difference.

But then, that would be scary, wouldn't it. If you didn't have close friends and family around (and many people don't), how many days without a paycheck before YOU were homeless?

We can't (or are afraid) to comprehend this. Some of us are cushioned by credit cards, options of bankruptcy, selling a few things, trimming our portfolio perhaps. But many people have no credit, no investments, and little to sell. Some hard-working poor (they do exist) and even the not-so-poor, are only a handful of missed paychecks from being evicted. Then the cost of living increases as mentioned above.

 

[don bohrer]

Not that my opinion matters much, but I will continue to ask that person on the street their name, give money or buy them food when I can. I will continue to treat them like a human being regardless of the circumstances they're in. It's just far to easy to excuse not being compassionate. If my caring attitude gets me in trouble one day then I will deal with it.

Nuff said

 

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Originally posted by don bohrer
If my caring attitude gets me in trouble one day then I will deal with it.

I refuse to live in fear and suspicion as well.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by nightingale8472
can you get by in America on a McDonald's wage? Absolutely not.

Ah, so the message here is, tis better to beg for money than try
to earn it. If I ended up homeless, you can bet that I'd have 2,3,
4 whatever number of jobs to support my family .. I wouldn't go
out and demand that others hand over the
money that they earned. I'm not say I wouldn't resort to
panhandling ... I'm saying you can bet every penny you've
earned, and ever will earned that I will NOT get in your personal
space, spit on you, call you names, and get in the personal space
in a confronting manner of your family. And you can be damned
sure that you won't see me with an alcoholic beverage in my hand
unless someone walked up and gave it to me.

AGAIN .. this is NOT about
fricken homeless people down on their luck .. this is about people
demanding money like you owe it to them, and having a
threatening demeanor about them. But since people insist on
bringing it up ... nightengale .. you posted your salary, your rent ..
how much of that salary goes to the homeless? You posted the
averages of so many expenses .. why not be fair and post how
much the government puts out in foodstamps, medicaid, WIC, and
assisted housing? Why not post the COST of the rent in assisted
housing? Why not post the estimated national amount of welfare
fraud perpetrated by homeless people. Why not post the
average number of people that scam the system, take food out
of the mouths of their own kids to they can buy beer?

I'm sure those that think every homeless person on this earth has
a degree and just needs a break will come back and tell me how
rare it is that people use foodstamps to scam beer money ... but
again .. I've worked in places that have accepted foodstamps, and
I saw it multiple times every single day I worked (5 - 6 days a
week). I've been threatened at least a dozen times by homeless
people. I've seen people I've given money to walk right into a
store and buy booze.

 

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by Kirk
Ah, so the message here is, tis better to beg for money than try
to earn it.

no, Kirk. That isn't what I said. I simply said that McDonalds jobs were probably not a viable solution. I didn't suggest ANY solution to the problem at all. I don't know if there is one.

But since people insist on
bringing it up ... nightengale .. you posted your salary, your rent ..
how much of that salary goes to the homeless?

Kirk, I give you the courtesy of spelling your name correctly. Please do the same for me... its Nightingale. Two "i"s, one "e". Just like the bird.

Wasn't planning on posting this, but since you asked...
how much of my salary goes to the homeless?... aside from the government programs supported by my tax dollars, I personally donated several hundred dollars in canned goods to a food bank last thanksgiving, and over a thousand in donations to various charities... and yes, when I was working in downtown LA and walked by homeless folks on the street, I usually gave them whatever was in my pockets at the time... probably around five to ten dollars a week. I also started carrying granola bars in my coat pocket, and on occasion would give those out instead. Personally, I can't see someone cold and hungry and not do at least a little something to help.

You posted the averages of so many expenses .. why not be fair and post how much the government puts out in foodstamps, medicaid, WIC, and assisted housing? Why not post the COST of the rent in assisted housing? Why not post the estimated national amount of welfare fraud perpetrated by homeless people. Why not post the average number of people that scam the system, take food out of the mouths of their own kids to they can buy beer?

The cost of rent in assisted housing depends on A LOT of variables...

1. what's the income of the family to start with?
2. what's the market rent for apartments in the area?
3. what's considered the "poverty line" for that area?
4. how many people are in the family?

Assisted housing is evaluated on a case by case basis. This is why I did not post those numbers.

if you have actual statistics (and appropriate sources) feel free to post them, rather than generalizations. Of course there are people that abuse the system. There are people that abuse EVERY system. The way I see it... if I hand a dollar to five homeless people, and only one of those dollars actually goes to feed a child... then the loss of the other four dollars was worth it... after all, its only money.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by nightingale8472
no, Kirk. That isn't what I said. I simply said that McDonalds jobs were probably not a viable solution. I didn't suggest ANY solution to the problem at all. I don't know if there is one.

But have you taken you fellow homeless persons there to apply?
Surely $865 is enough to buy food in California?

Originally posted by nightingale8472
Kirk, I give you the courtesy of spelling your name correctly. Please do the same for me... its Nightingale. Two "i"s, one "e". Just like the bird.

Yeah, okay

Originally posted by nightingale8472
Personally, I can't see someone cold and hungry and not do at least a little something to help.

Cold? In L.A? But $1100 last year, good for you.

Originally posted by nightingale8472
Assisted housing is evaluated on a case by case basis. This is why I did not post those numbers.

Post it??? You didn't even mention it.
Do they not extend assisted housing to the homeless?? Hmm .. perhaps because as inexpensive as they are, they still
require that you get your butt out there and work?

Originally posted by nightingale8472
if you have actual statistics (and appropriate sources) feel free to post them, rather than generalizations.

What did I generalize? That they exist??

Originally posted by nightingale8472
There are people that abuse EVERY system.

True .. but there's a TON that abuse welfare ... daily.

Originally posted by nightingale8472
The way I see it... if I hand a dollar to five homeless people, and only one of those dollars actually goes to feed a child... then the loss of the other four dollars was worth it... after all, its only money.

The way I see it and have seen it over and over again... that
rarely happens.

 

[Nightingale]

ya see, Kirk, to apply for a job, you usually need an ADDRESS, and/or a PHONE NUMBER.

You also need:

a place to shower
a way to get your clothes clean
a way to get to and from work


no, I haven't taken anyone in to apply at McDonalds, for the sole reason that the managers would look at me like I was crazy. I have, however, taken people over to the Los Angeles Mission for food and shelter.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Folks,

keep it civil or I'll get 'The Belt'.

And we dont want that now do we?

Especially since my pants might fall down.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by nightingale8472
ya see, Kirk, to apply for a job, you usually need an ADDRESS, and/or a PHONE NUMBER.

You also need:

a place to shower
a way to get your clothes clean
a way to get to and from work


no, I haven't taken anyone in to apply at McDonalds, for the sole reason that the managers would look at me like I was crazy. I have, however, taken people over to the Los Angeles Mission for food and shelter.

Hey, thanks for the education

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by Sharp Phil


When we are so blinded by our sense of collective societal guilt that we do not hold accountable a street person who physically attacks us, we are part of the problem -- a problem that leads to the societal decay I decry.

I dont disagree with this at all.

Recognition of reality is not a "lack of compassion." The problem with political correctness and the heightened sensitivities it creates -- sensitivities that prompt so many of us to become outraged when confronted with the "desert of the real" -- is that it demands we substitute what we wish was true for what is true.

But the way you think of the problem decides how you handle it, so thinking of it as filth, you will handle it that way.

It's state of mind, nothing to do woth reality. Reallity is that these poeple are people, not filth...




/Yari

 

[7starmantis]

Maybe I'm stupid, or maybe just naive, but I tend to look at this situation in a different way. If you take away all the arguments of WIC and Welfare, which Kirk mentioned, not that I know many actual homeless people on welfare its usually people who have a house, two cars, couple of dogs, several kids....oh wait, am I generalizing? Seems to be allot of that.
Anyway, take away all those arguments and what do you have left? Yourself. Personally I choose to always be generous, to always be nice, and helping. If it gets me in trouble or in a tough spot, does that mean that I forsake generosity and kindness because it didn't work on someone? No, never, I choose to be that way and I will always be that way.
I don't allow anyone else, let alone some stranger I see on the street, to have that much control over me. I control my own life and I choose to be compassionate, no one will or can change that, even a filthy, dirty, stinking street person who may not deserve another chance according to some of you.
I propose that none of us deserve a second chance, I say that we have all been tempted with greed and self indulgence that may be the very vice that got these people to their situation in the first place. Why do we feel better than them like we can judge them? What have we done in our own lives that makes us in a situation to say another human being doesn't deserve another chance?


7sm

 

[rmcrobertson]

Actually, it seems to me that the real question is: why see reality as being filled with threats?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Some interesting questions I found somewhere else:

A local bully pushes for a fight. Dost thou:

Trounce the rogue
Decline, knowing that no lasting good will come of it

Entrusted to deliver an uncounted purse of gold, thou dost meet a poor beggar. Dost thou:

Give the beggar a coin, knowing it won't be missed.
Deliver the gold knowing the trust in thee was well-placed.

Think about it for a second....

:asian:

 

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Actually, it seems to me that the real question is: why see reality as being filled with threats?

Beacuse it sells magazines.

 

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Some interesting questions I found somewhere else:

A local bully pushes for a fight. Dost thou:

Trounce the rogue
Decline, knowing that no lasting good will come of it

Entrusted to deliver an uncounted purse of gold, thou dost meet a poor beggar. Dost thou:

Give the beggar a coin, knowing it won't be missed.
Deliver the gold knowing the trust in thee was well-placed.

The Bully? I don't teach lessons for free to such people. I walk away.

The coins? They are not only NOT mine to give, but I was entrusted to the judgment of my superiors, and not my own. I agreed to do something for thier own purposes, therefore I accept them and do not assume my own.

My own coin? It depends. Would I give them a ride to the next town if it wouldn't slow my expected time? I would let them on a horse while I walk aside (holding the stippup, of course) -- a little exercise never did any harm, right?

 

[Phil Elmore]

The free articles for this month's The Martialist are finally online. I'll be following up with an August issue shortly to get back on schedule. I think most will find these were worth the wait. Included are some follow-ups to the homeless/street people issue.

Issue Intro

Free Articles Listing

The free half of the magazine includes:

The Martialist vs. The Pacifist
By David W. Pearson and Phil Elmore
Our monthly feature, in which your editor and his teacher David debate the virtues of martialism versus pacifism. This month we focus on the issue of panhandling. Should street beggars be considered a threat, or should we see them as good people down on their luck?

Street People, Pro and "Con"
By Karl "Safety Guy" Spaulding
Karl Spaulding offers an alternative view in this article, which charts something of a middle course between the two starkly opposed editorials for this issue.

Offramp Follies and Other Tales of the Obvious
By Phil Elmore
This is a quick look at a few things you really should consider when out and about. Inspired by online debates about "street people" and the danger represented by strangers of varying descriptions, you should already know these things. If you do, remind yourself now, and if you don't, please keep them in mind.

Bill Underwood's Defendo
By Robbie Cressman
Robbie Cressman of Defendo International talks about this combative system, originally created by Bill Underwood. Twenty years later, Defendo is alive and well in Canada and may be coming to a location near you.

SWCA Six Gates Defense
By Phil Elmore
Wing Chun instructor Anthony Iglesias created a stripped-down self-defense program that he teaches during weekend seminars and to all of his new students. Combining elements of Western boxing, Chinese and Japanese martial arts, and his own youthful experiences as a street brawler, he dubbed the result Six Gates Defense.

Frontal Choke Photo Scenario
By Tony Reyes
Two men with blurry blue faces learn a thing or two about frontal choke attacks in this photographic progression.

Combative Skills for Gunfighters
By Gabe Suarez
Martial artist and shooting expert Gabe Saurez addresses the need for unarmed combatives skills for those who routinely "go armed" with a handgun.

Improvised Weapons
By Rich Dimitri
Richard Dimitri of Senshido offers his perspective on an often covered and always important topic.

Fire!
By Phil Elmore
Complacency is a dangerous thing. When confronted with the unexpected, don't make the mistake of being unprepared.

Gunting: An Instructor's View
A Video Review by Phil Elmore
While not intended to introduce new students to Bram Frank's Gunting system, Gunting: An Instructor's View could indeed serve that purpose. The tapes give the student some insight into the concepts of the Gunting and drills to be performed with it. This article also includes brief reviews of the Gunting tools from Spyderco, in the context of system.

ComTech Fighting Bandanna
A Video Review by Phil Elmore
In a world increasingly hostile to the possession of weapons of self-defense, unconventional tools become even more important. James Keating's two-volume "Fighting Bandanna" set explores the use of this simple square of cloth as a weapon of self-defense and as a tool of emergency preparedness.

Lenny MaGill's Advanced Folding Knife Techniques
A Video Review by Phil Elmore
Lenny Magill, the man behind GunVideo.com (among other sites), takes on the tactical folder in this video on self-defense with a folding knife. While the title refers to "Advanced" techniques, this tape is geared towards viewers relatively unfamiliar with the tactical folder concept.

Carjack!
By Lawrence Keeney
Associate Editor Lawrence Keeney shares a real-life incident from which he learned some valuable lessons. He hopes you'll take away a thing or two of value from it, too.

An Amusing Incident at 0345
By Phil Elmore
If your car is burglarized in the middle of the night, do everyone a favor and call the cops without sounding like you're beating up your girlfriend while carrying a megaphone and high on crank.

Enjoy.

 

[Disco]

I have not taken the time to read all of the posts on this subject. If I should repeat a point that was already stated, my apology.

Our country had the same problem in the 30's. It was called the great depression. Bottom line was that lots of folks were out of work and homeless. The government did something about it. They put people to work. Building roads, bridges, dams etc. The same could and should be done today. It's a known fact that the countries infrastructure is falling apart. Roads and Bridges need major repairs. Plus there's a need for new one's. It did'nt kill our Grandfather's or Great Grandfather's to go to work like this. In fact it gave them a sense of pride to be working and taking care of the family. Something that seems to be missing from our modern day society.

I guess many people need not see a TV news story on the homeless and panhandling. It was on about a year ago. Anyway, they interviewed a panhandler, one of the "will work for food" sign wavers. He made more money tax free in a day than most hard working people do. Why should I find a job he said, there's none that pay as good as this. After that show, many cities in the mid-south west made it illegal to panhandle without a permit. It was their way of not trying to be to insensitive to the plight of the less fortunate. Did'nt stop people, police just looked the other way, low priority.

In my opinion, it's time for the Government to step in and do what should be done. The legit homeless out of work, restart the depresion era job corps and give them work and a place to live. The phonies out there, well you know where they can go........
:asian:

 

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Originally posted by Disco
... Our country had the same problem in the 30's. It was called the great depression. Bottom line was that lots of folks were out of work and homeless. The government did something about it. They put people to work. Building roads, bridges, dams etc. The same could and should be done today. ........
:asian:

Unfortunatley, "workfare" is being equated with slavery by the psycho-racists within the Black community, and people take it seriously. And the ACLU would probably eat it up at every opportunity. Heaven forbid people be forced to work for their money like the rest of us.