Dealing with the Homeless

[Phil Elmore]

This issue is particularly relevant to me, now, because my city is considering an ordinance that would make "aggressive panhandling" a crime. Predictably, the people who think we have to show these manimals compassion and understanding continue to completely miss the threat they represent.

My teacher Dave and I wrote opposing editorials on the topic for the next issue of The Martialist.

Panhandling Point-Counterpoint

(I'm not telling most of the people here anything they don't already know, of course, so please forgive me if this is painfully obvious to you.) One of the simplest, most useful things you can learn to adopt is the "fence" stance -- a staggered, hands-up, palms-out position that transmits in body language the message, "hey, now, back up there, maintain your distance." The default hand position in Wing Chun Kung Fu is very similar -- it's a double "wu sau" ("guarding hand"), basically two vertical hands with one behind the other to protect the centerline (below, right). Picture opening the hands a little so the palms face the approaching person, and you've got a great barrier that doesn't look like a "fighting stance."

(Nobody's talking about dropping into your Daniel-san Crane Stance and howling like Bruce Lee, after all.)

My Wing Chun instructor, when he finds himself in threatening situations (he is in a band and spends a lot of time in bars and clubs, for example) will raise one hand as if he's scratching his chest; it is much the same thing. By the same token, the double "wu sau" position and the "fence" stance are also very similar. The point is to get your hands out there to visually send the message that you wish to preserve your personal space while at the same time physically covering yourself.

Homeless people are not simply harmless bums asking you for change. Street people are more often than not mentally deranged, physically diseased, and totoally unpredictable. Allowing one to violate your personal space is a very bad idea.

Human filth like this ought to be treated like the threat they represent. I hope my city passes the ordinance. It will help a little in freeing our citizens from the constant harassment of these beggars.

 

[Kirk]

Great article, IMO the best read yet!

 

[progressivetactics]

is your dollar so important to you?

Have we lost all compassion for fellow humans? For years, we destroyed everything in our past, all animals, trees, vegetation, etc...now we trying to learn from our mistakes and preserve things. As martial arts, shouldn't our jobs be to preserve life, have reverance for it? Of course there are bad people out there. Begging, polluting, making things un-attractive...but as a society, shouldn't we be trying to fix the root cause, not bandage over the scars from mistakes of our own people.

Why are there people pan handling? Mostly? They need something. Food, drink....something. "Get a job", right? Not as easy as it once was. Corporate downsizing, outsourcing from Mexico, China, etc...

Now sir..i am not sure where you are. I am in Detroit. We have issues like this as well. I agree, don't let them invade your personal space. Keep them as far away as you feel comfortable... but do not ignore their needs. If you can help them, why would you not help?

I create food bags and hand them out in downtown Detroit everyear. I personally shop for, and bag all the food myself. I get in with the people who are living in these sh*th*les and are disease ridden, and unpredictable and TRY TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN THEIR LIFE. If 1 good thing is done to someone, perhaps it will turn them to do 1 good thing for someone else. I prefer to think of people as positive, not negative.

Just my humble opinion.

Human filth like this ought to be treated like the threat they represent. I hope my city passes the ordinance. It will help a little in freeing our citizens from the constant harassment of these beggars.

that statement scares me. It sounds like something from a dictator speech.

 

[progressivetactics]

the article was well done!

SOrry i forgot that in previous post.

 

[tarabos]

i would honestly have to give this issue some more though before i expressed any opinion on it. you see i do not live in a large city, i live in a small town in Pennsylvania where i can honestly say i have never seen a homeless person or anyone holding up a sign or begging for change. yet even though i do not live around that type of setting, i have been accosted by a homeless person before. the man asked me for two dollars to "buy throat losenges because his throat was sore from singing in church too loud." yeah right...that guy gets the prize for most creative excuse for why you should give him money for doing nothing. ok...after writing that, maybe i am more inclined to side with Phil in the point-counterpoint.

I’ll just wrap up this post with a story of a run-in one of my cousins had with a panhandler. My cousin owns a horse farm. He was in the process of putting up a new fence around his property. As he was driving along one day he noticed a man on the side of the road with a sign (I forget what it said but you can pretty much imagine the jist of it) begging for handouts. My cousin pulls up alongside the man in his car and rolls down the window. He tell the man that he’s not going to just give him money, but he will offer him a chance to earn it. He told him to either get in the car or find a way to get to his property, and help him put up his fence for the day. He offered 40 dollars an hour for 8 hours of work. A pretty good deal if you ask me. The man turned down the offer. My cousin offered again, the man again turned him down. It went on a little longer, my cousin offering the job, plus upping the offer to include a free home-cooked meal, and the panhandler turning him down.

The way my cousin was describing it, he himself was getting a little pushy with the panhandler when he was turned down on his offer, and then began to accost him himself, saying some harsh things to the man. Now granted, I’m the firs to admit that my cousin is quite a jackass. I personally can’t stand him, and he was rather rude to the man, more so than I could ever be. And granted, I would think twice myself about taking an offer to get in a strangers car and let him take me to “work on a fence.” however, he did make a good point that when presented with the opportunity to make an honest dollar, the panhandler turned it down in favor of sitting on the side of the road and little money for doing nothing except making his little sign.

 

[Kirk]

Their needs? What, a drink, or crack fix? If they have a mental
problem then they need to go to a facility for treatment .. my tax
dollars are already there to help him. If they have a drug
problem, then they don't need one red cent from me, I have a job
and I EARN my money. There's nothing stopping them from doing
the same. Panhandling is good money, plain and simple. It's the
easy way out for those not wanting to actually earn a living. If
unemployment were at ZERO, then I might have a change of heart
but hell, I used to work at Mickey Dee's, we got free food, free
uniforms, and a check every two weeks. And last I heard ..
they're still hiring!

I don't owe them a damned thing, they need to get their asses up
and get a job! I'd rather give some money to the guy that has a
job, but can't make ends meet. Or the single parent who's check
just doesn't cover the expense of living, than the bum on the
street that just doesn't want to do anything except get high, and
loaf.

 

[progressivetactics]

I am not oblivious to the people who abuse the gererousity of myself and others....I know it exists. I would prefer to help then to turn a blind eye to those who need.

By the way...you need to have an address to get a job. You can't get an address if you are homeless.

we have very few fast food places in the ghetto, so it isn't that easy.

Most of the people who end up on the street are because they couldn't make ends meet and ended up there....not by choice.

You earned your money...No doubts about it. I applaud you. Your tax dollars help in paying for mentally challanged as well. And with a good insurance plan, or a current family member providing assistance, they can check into that hospital. Currently, they can't walk into a hospital and get treated for mental illness.

The gene that makes people addicted is much stronger in some then others.....and some people can't/wont say no when they should. Aren't we all guilty of that at some point? You don't complain when the girl you were dating in school couldn't say no. Or when you were at a party and someone passed a joint, or a beer can, and you already had too much.

People like yourself get to where you are because of 2 things, hard work, and someone bending down and giving you a hand up.

I don't think the majority of street people are able to give the hand up to anyone, but I think I can. I am offering to help them. Not all of them, and I have kept my hands up as protection on a few occasions as well. Buy by in large, I still believe in people.

Just my opinion.

 

[Phil Elmore]

It's not a question of wanting to hang on to a dollar; it's a question of being fed up with the harassment. It isn't a question of not feeling compassion for those in need, either -- it's a matter of recognizing that most street people are mentally deranged or chemically addicted and therefore very, very physically dangerous.

There is this myth that most homeless people are just regular folk who are down on their luck. This does happen, but it is the exception, not the rule. Street people are dangerous and we forget this fact at our peril.

More significantly, tolerating -- even openly supporting -- significant populations of street people who spend their days accosting our citizens is one of the factors contributing greatly to societal decay in urban areas. It's a "quality of life" issue to a significant degree (though to a lesser extent than it is a personal safety issue).

 

[progressivetactics]

I know many chemically addicted people.....in the office, and in the karate club. Caffine, and nicotene....Two of the biggest offenders!!!

I don't believe that it is a myth. I do believe most are down on their luck. I don't think most of them would chose to live like they do. I think most of them would like to have a job and a nice car,and a computer to post thier opinions on. But the fact is, as big business keeps downsizing, and outsourcing to other countries, as our governement keeps giving billions in aid to every country around the world, we will have people in need.
I dont believe your exception/rule. I think you have it backwards. Now, granted, more and more people are abusing it, Yes. Agreed, but to turn blind eye is no help either. To be afraid to look someone in the eye because they may have a disease....come on. Chlamideya is the #1 disease in the country. SOmething like 80% of the 16-44 year olds have it. Now, compare that to the homeless population, and I think that means more homeowners have it then homeless.

Now. I have only been "aggressively" harrassed a couple times in the last few years and have kept my guard up, and listened to thier case and made a case by case decision as to whether or not to support them (my change). But to blanketly say that the majorty have disease and are a menace to society is far to harsh for a truth based arguement.

If by quality of life, you mean pretending you live in a utopian society...you are probably right. But that is not, nor will it ever be the case.
And for societal decay....That is, IMHO, a reflection of attitude, more then a class of people.

 

[Kirk]

I guess that's what it boils down to. Whether or not you think
those people are going the easy route, and begging for handouts,
or whether you think they're just "down on their luck".

In Texas .. the county hospitals MUST treat all who come,
regardless of their ability to pay, and that includes mental
impairments.

Shelters have addresses, and there are loads of 'em, at least in
San Antonio.

I used to work in a western wear/farm & ranch store. Many a
rancher would come in and tell me stories of offering the guy on
the corner a block away, food and a job paying more than I was
making at the store. Never did he take any of them up on it. Was
that his lack of an address? Nope. Wasn't relevant. I've since
done the same .. offered a meal first, and payment for work with
several people (granted not what the ranchers were offering but
money for a day's work). None, out of at LEAST 20, have ever
taken me up on it.

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Maybe you should have called this "Dealing with street people" rather than using the word "homeless."

I have known a few homeless people that really were just down on their luck. They weren't out there begging for money or harrasing people. You can usually meet some folks through church groups like this.

Street people are a completly different breed. Either they are mentally ill, or on drugs, or both. Considering the stuff they do, you do not want to get into a bloody situation with them.

 

[Phil Elmore]

Originally posted by Shadow Hunter
...Considering the stuff they do, you do not want to get into a bloody situation with them.

...Which is exactly why you must keep them at a distance. Unfortunately, the choice of whether the situation then becomes "bloody" is generally up to them.

 

[rmcrobertson]

"Human filth," eh?

Way to give every religious principle I've ever heard of the old heave-ho...musta skipped that part of the Gospels in which Christ said, "the poor, the naked, the desperate?...screw 'em."

Even if these hordes of threatening zombies were real--and, funny thing, hasn't happened to me in New York, Newark, LA, Chicago, Phoenix, New Orleans, etc.--well, I could go off on compassion and the martial arts, or even just reasonable threat assessment and the martial arts, but what's the point?

Don't worry. I won't post further on this thread under any circumstances.

"Human filth." Unbelievable.

 

[grimfang]

hmmm... how to 'deal with' the homeless.....
i personally do not like being harrassed by a guy with a squeegee and bucket at every red light, or someone begging for change on every corner, or tripping over someone sleeping on a sidewalk. However, i do not overlook one simple detail: Street people are still PEOPLE. How do we 'deal with' them?
Here is a very bold suggestion: TRY FINDING A SOLUTION TO THEIR PROBLEM, AND THEY WILL STOP BEING A PROBLEM.

SO many people complain about homeless citizens.. but SO few do anything about it. When was the last time anyone here actaully helped a homeless person find a home? When was the last time anyone here offered a stable job to a homeless person? When was the last time anyone here put a homeless person in the car and drove them to a rehab clinic? When was the last time that anybody here contacted their elected oficials and lobbied to change laws in order to better assisst these people? I have done all of these things.. i am ashamed to say that i have not done it enough.

It seems to me that the real problem is all of us that choose to do nothing. Fear and hatred solve nothing.

 

[Michael Billings]

Experience is the best teacher!

Compassion, charity, encouragement, when not misplaced, return to the giver manyfold ... even it that is just us feeling better about ourselves or our actions. You cannot discount the truely huge number of disenfranchised Americans who are on the streets, and been there for the past 20 years or so. Prior to that, in the 60's or 70's, the number of "street people" or homeless, that I had to deal with, was significantly smaller.

This should not be confused with the predators out there that have made panhandling a lifestyle choice, not out of necessity (mental health issues, traumatic life changes, etc.), but out of choice. I also have a similar story of offering a panhandler a job. I offered minimum wage for the next day or two, and was frankly and coherently told that he "made more money than that in a day panhandling." This was not a "Predator", but a life style choice.

I have also been accosted by more aggressive street people. The repetitiveness of the request, the fact that I had a date with me and he was getting way too close to her and hoping I would pay to leave her alone, then when I assertively told him to leave us alone, he escalated. I had to pull my badge and threaten him with a night in jail to get him to back off. He did, but he was cursing and yelling the whole time. He said "throw me in jail, it ain't like I have not been there before."

Where his space ends, and mine begins, is the line that I have drawn in the sand. I will not risk being stabbed. This is something that actually happened here in Austin a couple of years ago. Several young kids (or adults) were out for the night on 6th Street. While walking back to their car, a homeless guy walking on the sidewalk the other way, seemingly punches one of the women in the stomach. She had not been punched, but stabbed with a full sized hunting knife. The 2 males subdued the guy, and I believe one was cut (minor if there is any such thing,) The young woman was in the hospital and did recover, but not without a lot of surgery. They had never seen the guy before, he had not asked for anything from them, they were just the target for him taking his rage out ... about someone else? ... about his lifestyle, who knows what ... and who cares! HE STABBED A 19 YEAR OLD GIRL FOR NO REASON.

Phil, you done good. Give if you want to give, but on your own terms. Acceptance is the first Prepatory Consideration in Kenpo, and Environmental Awareness is the second. They are there for a reason.

Be judicious & be careful. Not everything is what it seems - the good or the bad.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Something else to remember: The economy right now is in a bad way. I've seen reports that unemoployment is at 7 and even 20 year highs. While there are in fact jobs out there, often times one is either so under qualified as to not bother trying, or so over qualified as to be un hireable. (Think a 10 yr out of work sysadmin with a masters trying out for the fry-cook position at McD. Wanna bet the 16yr old gets the job first?) Its rough, and getting rougher. Buffalo's never had the amount of street people as is obvious in bigger cities like NY or Toronto, but I've heard its growing.

The solutions are that the crazies need to be taken care of, and the 'down on their luck' ones need a stable base to work from. Jobs need to be available, but for that to happen, the economy needs to pick up. The politicions need to stop lying about all these jobs they will create since they never do create jobs. (Employers do, and for them to need to hire they must be in a growth phase)

:asian:

 

[tkdcanada]

For the most part, I agree with Kirk's point of view. Why should everyone else take responsibility for these people. They need to learn to take responsibility for themselves. You make your path and you create your own destiny. There are social programs put in place to help. Yes, I know that it's possible to be down on your luck, but too often it's used as an excuse to put the responsibility onto others. I watched a program where a homeless man was interviewed and followed for a week or so - the conditions he lived in were horible - he also had thousands of dollars in the bank! Many actually choose that life. Rather than hard-working tax payers taking responsibility for them, maybe more programs should be put into place to help them take responsibility for themselves. It's frustrating. Here in Canada, they seem to be harder on people who go on unemployment insurance temporarily than they are on people who go on welfare! It just doesn't makes any sense. When you are on unemployment insurance, you have to show that you are looking for employment and you get nothing but 54% (i think) of your previous wages for a certain amount of weeks depending on how much you've worked - which I think is reasonable, it helps to keep the situation temporary. But the minute you go on welfare, you get all your medical prescriptions and dental work paid for, you cannot be forced to look for a job and there is no time limit - the perfect situation to abuse the system (and people do abuse it). Then what happens is when people actually need to be on welfare because of unfortunate circumstances, it is so humiliating and they are treated like trash because of the great number of abusers of the system. BTW, I am neither on uemployment, nor welfare, but I've been in both places and pulled myself up having worked menial jobs, returned to school and begun a meaningful career, so I don't look down upon anyone, I just believe in accountability.

 

[tarabos]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Something else to remember: The economy right now is in a bad way. I've seen reports that unemoployment is at 7 and even 20 year highs. While there are in fact jobs out there, often times one is either so under qualified as to not bother trying, or so over qualified as to be un hireable. (Think a 10 yr out of work sysadmin with a masters trying out for the fry-cook position at McD. Wanna bet the 16yr old gets the job first?) Its rough, and getting rougher. Buffalo's never had the amount of street people as is obvious in bigger cities like NY or Toronto, but I've heard its growing.

also a good reason for the current administration to take a closer look at what's going on in the United States and stop worrying so much about everyone else's affairs. the economy is getting ridiculous in this country. i count my blessings every day because i'm working in the field that i paid to get my education in. it would surprise you to learn how many people i went to college with and how many people that are graduating now or recently that can't say the same and are working jobs that they should have been working over summer vacation in high school to make ends meet.

straying back on topic though, i think that there are different types of homeless people out there. i'm sure that there really are a lot of people that just happened to run into some bad luck one way or another and were unfortunate enough to wind up without any money or a place to live. if you ever "run into" a homeless person either begging or harrassing you, i would doubt it would be one of these people. i honestly do feel sorry for them.

it's the people who may be on drugs or alcohol or what have you...making up stories about why you should give them money or just plain harrass the hell out of you or worse attack you that are making the most waves. yes, i agree, these people need to be "dealt with." perhaps it does sound harsh to some people here but it's a reality.

help them out then you say? when i'm done helping my family, my friends and myself through troubles, maybe i'll get to them. but i'm not a politician, i'm not an officer of the law nor am i in any type of military. i don't feel it's my responsibility. it's not like i never donate to charities or to goodwill or even just donate food to local food drives. i think i do more than my share.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Way to give every religious principle I've ever heard of the old heave-ho...musta skipped that part of the Gospels in which Christ said, "the poor, the naked, the desperate?...screw 'em."

"the poor" not "the lazy"

 

[Bob Hubbard]

The question I have is, given that we all base things on our own biases and opinions.... is that guy, who is wearing rags, who smells like a compost heap, beggin for a buck ...

Is he poor, or lazy?

We walk by and mutter "get a job you bum".

We have no way of knowing what his story is, as we just look at him and judge.

He may have been a highly educated person, who spent months sending out hundreds of resumes, knocking on every door, right up to the point in time where he was booted out of his home, his friends and family no where to be found, forced to survive, with every step becoming harder and harder.

He may also be a drugged out booze hound.

Too often, they look alike.

Too often, esp. today, I hear of people who are highly trained and skilled in their fields, working very mundane jobs just to get by.