Deadliest pressure point - did I need to know?

[Lynne]

One of my students has been serving in the Army since just after 9-11. While in the field in Iraq there were many instances when he and his men ran short or out of ammo. He was forced to deal with the incoming attacks with his body. When he came back on leave later in the year I asked him to teach a seminar for our students. He chose to teach his seminar on “The Field Applications of Kicho Hyung Il Bu”. After seeing what he had derived from this most basic hyung from our curriculum, as well as others, it was clear to my class that there are many lethal techniques and movements within what we see simply as blocks, strikes and kicks…

Please give Grandmaster Byrne my regards when you see him again.




TANG SOO!!!

Hi Master Penfil,

I will certainly give Grandmaster Byrne your regards. I hope he comes to our school again soon. Master Mitchell usually accompanies him. She is a terrific lady.

That's fascinating about Kicho Hyung Il Bu, our basic form #1, what I've been told is nothing more than a warmup really. Ha. (It is a good warmup though!) The Field Applications - Wow. Exile had mentioned in another thread about how the Hyungs really weren't about balance and control but some nasty moves.

I had wondered about those blocks, such as Hadon Makee. I was wondering how I would use one if I were attacked. I thought about the twisting from the core and preparation I was learning. It seemed more like a punch to me the more I though about it. If someone were kicking at you or rushing you and you "blocked" them with the proper preparation, it would be rather painful to them.

Not too long ago, we were doing punching drills. We were hitting the Wavemasters with reverse punches. I did one particularly well and the thing started to fall over and actually hit someone in the head. I had no idea I could do that - lack of upper body strength or so I thought. I had twisted hard with offensive stepping and used proper arm preparation.

I start sparring in about two months or so. I wonder how a low block is used in sparring. Well, I've seen people position their arms in front of their thighs as they bounce. I don't think I've actually seen anyone block a kick with a low block though. Then again, I'm usually doing one-on-one kicking during the sparring.

 

[howard]

One of my students has been serving in the Army since just after 9-11. While in the field in Iraq there were many instances when he and his men ran short or out of ammo...

Given the tens of billions we're spending over there, that seems pretty damned inexcusable.

How can any of our troops run out of ammo?

 

[Blindside]

Well be careful, the Austin Powers "Judo Chop!" is a real technique but (not Judo) it needs to be done precisely and in a way that it doesn't break your hand against solid bone.

My 8 year old cousin with no training what so ever, KOed a kid on the playground with a chop to the neck.... got suspended for it too. He just did what he saw on TV.

Lamont

 

[Lynne]

My 8 year old cousin with no training what so ever, KOed a kid on the playground with a chop to the neck.... got suspended for it too. He just did what he saw on TV.

Lamont

So, is the little prodigy in MA training now??? How is the kid that got knocked out?

 

[Lynne]

Given the tens of billions we're spending over there, that seems pretty damned inexcusable.

How can any of our troops run out of ammo?

I'm curious, too. Wonder if the government was fiddling around with paperwork, etc. You know, not signing off on orders for shipment of arms and that sort of thing.

 

[Blindside]

So, is the little prodigy in MA training now??? How is the kid that got knocked out?

Nope, he isn't exactly the most disciplined person in the world (8 years old was a long time ago for him). I never heard what happened to the other kid, but I assume hes fine. I've stopped people in sparring with neck shots, but they usually result in a "stun" rather than a KO. Person is usually fine after about 15/20 seconds, but they often don't remember getting hit.

Lamont

 

[Blindside]

Given the tens of billions we're spending over there, that seems pretty damned inexcusable.

How can any of our troops run out of ammo?

Have you looked at the price of ammo lately? Military demand has outstripped the standard government contractors ability to produce it, we're using US civilian companies as well as going to outside countries (like Israel) to produce enough ammo for the troops. Its a supply problem.

Lamont

 

[jks9199]

Given the tens of billions we're spending over there, that seems pretty damned inexcusable.

How can any of our troops run out of ammo?

Probably 'cause in the real world, guns need to be reloaded, and you can't carry but so much gear and ammo at any given time.

Movieland... guns never run dry, and if they do, spare magazines/clips are always available and full.

Real world... If you carry 46 rounds, you've got 46 rounds. Not 50. Not 47.

 

[MBuzzy]

Given the tens of billions we're spending over there, that seems pretty damned inexcusable.

How can any of our troops run out of ammo?

While this is pretty far off topic for this thread, just thought I'd add something in.....

I have heard a few times in the news, papers, rumors, etc that the military has or had an ammo shortage. This is only a half truth perpetuated by media in my opinion. The military did have a huge ammo shortage - in the US....because it was all being shipped over seas. I don't believe that the forces in Iraq or Afghanistan had to deal with TOO much in terms of ammo shortages. Now, any shortage is inexcusable in the case of combat or training - but no matter what we do there will be supply shortages. In every war in every country, no one will EVER have everything that they want or need - that is simply the reality of war and the military.

As for troops actually in combat running out of ammo - that is not unheard of. Every soldier is typically issued a double combat load to leave base. Let's just say that that's A LOT of ammo. Too much to carry in fact, but once you've left base, that's all you have. If you encounter multiple fire fights, or have to fire a lot or are firing on semi or fully automatic.....even a double combat load can go quick. Until I fired in three shot burst, I had no concept of how quickly 30 rounds can go through a rifle if you're not consciencious of your ammo consumption.

I think if we would like to discuss this topic any more, it probably needs its own thread....

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

My 8 year old cousin with no training what so ever, KOed a kid on the playground with a chop to the neck.... got suspended for it too. He just did what he saw on TV.

Lamont

Lamont,
There is more to your statement than most martial artists in today’s world realize…

I began my training in 1972. At that time Bruce Lee was rolling out “Enter the Dragon” and very few people really had a clue as to what martial arts were or what a “Karate Chop” was.

If we got into a fight with someone on the street we had a superior position over them because at that time there weren’t any dojo’s/dojang’s that I can remember as being watered down. It didn’t matter if you were training in Tang Soo Do, Tae Kwon Do, Shotokan, Isshinryu, or any number of other systems. It didn’t matter if your system was Korean, Japanese, Okinawan or Chinese. Every school (at least here in Detroit) was HARD CORE in it’s training and application. There was no false sense of security. If you earned a “Black Belt” from any of those schools at that time, you could defend yourself in a street-fight, and have a “Leg-Up” (no pun intended) on the other guy(s).

Today however, due in part to television, the internet and action films to bullies are exposed to martial arts techniques as well. Think about it; a bully may not go to a martial arts school to be honed into a fighting machine, but with enough exposure (visually) and a good imagination, over time a serious street fighter can develop the ability to throw powerful kicks and punches too. With the introduction to events such as the UFC (Gracie Ju Jutsu) and other MMA shows on television and their computers that so many clamor to watch, the average street fighter has gain an education in how to up his/her gave considerably over the past 30 years.

We, as martial artists have to continue to seek out the “UPGRADE” in our training in order to stay ahead of the game. I had a conversation this past week with a dear friend and mentor of mine in the Tang Soo Do community about the way that I teach my class in comparison to the standard in our community. What I stated (and he agreed) was that; at the turn of the century (1899-1900) the Okinawan’s were spreading their art to Japan. The original name used by Funakoshi was NOT Karate-Do, it was Karate-Jutsu. The term “Jutsu” referred to the practical application in the system as opposed to “Do” which reefer’s to the “WAY”. The “WAY” was designed to remove the more dangerous interpretation of the techniques and replace them with focus on the development of mind, body and spirit. The overall focus was moved from developing deadly response to assault to character development.

In many ways this was a change that was good for the time, as the Samurai era had come to an end and the need to defend ones self against sword swinging aggressors was a thing of the (recent) past.

I have come to a point in my training where I feel that quite possibly the change from “Jutsu” to “Do” removed too much of the practical application, and we as martial artists have come to believe that the art that we train in will provide us with a certain level of defensive ability that is simply won’t as it is commonly taught at this time by the majority of school today.

It is my goal as an instructor to merge these two important pieces of our martial arts; the ”Jutsu” and the “Do”, with a balance that delivers to my students, both the character building and the serious defensive tactical benefits of good training.


Tang Soo Do as a system contains most of the tools needed to accomplish this goal. There are principles and philosophies that I have learned from other systems that have certainly assisted me in developing and taking what I teach to a higher level. It should be understood that there isn’t any one system that has all of the answers. Each system specializes in certain techniques. We, as Tang Soo Do practitioners (as well as those in Tae Kwon Do and like systems) are excellent kicker. Japanese and Okinawan systems teach extremely powerful punching technique, Aiki Ju Jutsu systems teach excellent joint locking and manipulation techniques.

Some systems like Tang Soo Do, Tae Kwon Do, Shotokan and others from this lineage are great at proximities (distances) that allow for the set up of long range kicking and punching, and in many cases tend to be what can be labeled as linear fighting systems, while systems like Isshinryu (Okinawan) tend to be better at closer proximity and apply (traditionally) all kicks to the floating ribs and lower. In some Okinawan schools the kicking is restricted to the hip joints and groin and lower, as these systems teach their students about quadrant fighting techniques (the upper limbs defend and attack the upper body while the lower limbs defend and attack the lower body. These systems traditionally teach the use of moving on angles to evade and counter attack as opposed to moving in a linier fashion as well.

Wing Chun (Chinese) trains in the closest proximity of any (Stand-Up) system that I have ever seen or trained in. This is what I consider a true CQC (Close-Quarters-Combat) system.

Over the past 36 years I have trained extensively in all of these systems as well as several others. I continue to call what I teach “Tang Soo Do” as I believe that what KJN Hwang Kee wrote in his master text was completely accurate as to the origin of his art, and all martial arts in general. None of us (myself included) came out of the whom kicking, punching and screaming ( in the fashion that they teach us in martial arts training) everything that we will ever learn or establish as our “WAY”, our “Do” came from others who came before us. It is our responsibility to make ours, a “Life-Long” journey to search out constant “Upgrade” in all that we do, and to remember that while we continue to seek perfection, we will never achieve it. The attainment of perfection is not our true goal; it is the journey that we take along the “WAY”…

According the KJN Hwang Kee;
It’s ALL Tang Soo Do. Keep an open mind, and keep training!!!

(My A.D.D. kicked in somewhere in the middle of this post. I hope that it isn’t too long or too far off of the original subject)​

TANG SOO!!!

 

[Kreth]

The strike to the nose that forced the bone up into the brain was in fact a real technique that was taught and worked consistently in military engagements…

Of course, it worked consistently when the strike was made with the butt of a rifle, not simply a hand…

I'm gonna call "urban legend" on this one. I don't have time to search Snopes right now, but I vaguely recall them having a page debunking this.

 

[Tez3]

I'm gonna call "urban legend" on this one. I don't have time to search Snopes right now, but I vaguely recall them having a page debunking this.

I think you should reread this one, I think you've missed the irony there. Master Jay wasn't saying it worked!

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

I think you should reread this one, I think you've missed the irony there. Master Jay wasn't saying it worked!

Tez3,
It does work... if the strike is made with the butt of your rifle (LOL)...

 

[Tez3]

Tez3,
It does work... if the strike is made with the butt of your rifle (LOL)...

That's why I suggested he re-read it! I was just in too much of a hurry to write it all out! (I had to clean the Dojo lol!)