Darting Leaves

Nightingale

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does anyone have a breakdown for this technique? I've been told that there is more to it than what's in long 4...?
 

jfarnsworth

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I can't speak for others but I'm not sure there is an actual breakdown on this technique. I was told that it was a filler technique that was taken out of long 4. Personally our class has not played with it in self defense context. Looking at this tech. in the context of the form maybe you want to add a right outward claw after the finger dart. Get the attacker's head to turn place your right foot down execute a right thrusting sweep, maybe follow it up with the reverse roundhouse sweep. This is just a thought. Maybe another thought is to finish the technique with the extension to Prance of the Tiger it looks like the same basic position to me.
Salute,
Jason Farnsworth
 
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Nightingale

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Darting leaves is an old technique that was taken out of the system. It remains in Long 4, but the version in Long 4 is probably incomplete. Some people at the studio I train at are curious as to what the whole thing looks like.
 

jfarnsworth

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To the best of my knowledge this technique is not "set" in stone as part of the curriculum. I was told that the movement was in form 4 as well as reversing circles, and circling windmills. Someone gave these movements a technique sequence and there they were. The other two had made it in the curriculum Darting Leaves did not. Maybe I was told incorrectly, I don't really know. But all I can tell you is what I've learned in my short amount of time in kenpo. Hopefully this helps. Or maybe someone that has more info. will post on this subject.
Jason Farnsworth
 

donald

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Being that this is a "older" kenpo technique. Is there a chance that The Tracy's teach it in its entirety? I have it in L4, but I had to do some detecting to even find out what it was called!

Salute in Christ,
:D
 

Blindside

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Hi all,

We have it listed as a tech, the Tracy name for it is "Preying Mantis." I don't work off an official Tracy curriculum, we teach it pretty much as seen in the form. Instead of the simultaneous eyepoke and groin/knee kick, we teach to parry, trap, kick, then use the handstrike. We teach the different sequence because it allows marriage of gravity if you want to use more of an impact handweapon. In the form it is done simultaneously.

Maybe Ricardo (or Dan Farmer) can answer this one better regarding the Tracy tech.

Lamont
 

GaryM

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Hi Guys, For what it's worth, my instructor told me when I asked long ago that it was the alternate beginning to protective fans. I.E. From poke kick combo check his arm down and step in with elbow ect.
 

punisher73

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This was one of the techniques that was taught by Prof. Chow that Ed Parker learned and kept in his system (at least for a bit).

Darting Leaves.jpg

As you can see the technique IS very short. Left parry and then a kick to the groin and eye poke done at the same time.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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This was one of the techniques that was taught by Prof. Chow that Ed Parker learned and kept in his system (at least for a bit).

View attachment 27050
As you can see the technique IS very short. Left parry and then a kick to the groin and eye poke done at the same time.
Is there any particular logic that you know of to it being a downward parry rather than a sweeping one when done cross-body?
 

punisher73

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Not a kenpo guy, but my understanding is that in this particular scenario you want your own energies working together. If I do the cross body parry, I am tying myself up to go over the parry with my right spear, or I am adding another "beat" into the technique while the parry moves back offline. With this execution, I can almost do all three moves at the same time without having to readjust any body position or weight distribution.
 

Tez3

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Just wanted to say you guys have the greatest names for your techniques! 😀
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Not a kenpo guy, but my understanding is that in this particular scenario you want your own energies working together. If I do the cross body parry, I am tying myself up to go over the parry with my right spear, or I am adding another "beat" into the technique while the parry moves back offline. With this execution, I can almost do all three moves at the same time without having to readjust any body position or weight distribution.
You could do the same though with reversing the hand that performs the spear and parry, although the spear would take a fraction longer since it's coming rearhand, you're no longer risking anything by parrying downward the cross-body punch.

Just for clarity, I'm not necessarily arguing with you, since I know that you didn't come up with the technique (or even practice it). Just seems a strange decision to me.
 

punisher73

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You could do the same though with reversing the hand that performs the spear and parry, although the spear would take a fraction longer since it's coming rearhand, you're no longer risking anything by parrying downward the cross-body punch.

Just for clarity, I'm not necessarily arguing with you, since I know that you didn't come up with the technique (or even practice it). Just seems a strange decision to me.
I gotcha now. In the original technique, it is designed on that unskilled attack of throwing your body forward and throwing a right hand punch, so the right leg/right hand are forward, often times called a stepthrough punch. It wasn't designed on a boxer's type right cross, or a right jab.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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I gotcha now. In the original technique, it is designed on that unskilled attack of throwing your body forward and throwing a right hand punch, so the right leg/right hand are forward, often times called a stepthrough punch. It wasn't designed on a boxer's type right cross, or a right jab.
Gotcha. That was initially an issue with SKK when I was taught it, but they had changed to "realistic" strikes and I believe the techniques were adapted to that. Completely slipped my mind about the stepthrough punches.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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This is a good example that a from is created from application. When you train form like this, your training can map into your fighting.

I wish all the MA forms are created like this.

 

isshinryuronin

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I wish all the MA forms are created like this.
In the video on Darting Leaves you posted, it ends in the same kind of way as Charging Ram, in as much one hand guides the opponent forward and down, followed by a downward strike. This works in Charging Ram as the attacker's head is already low and his momentum is already going forward.

The 2nd half of Darting Leaves is much different, however. There is an upward elbow (opponent going up and back in reaction) followed by an open hand face strike (resulting in continuation of the up and back motion.) But this is followed by cupping the neck, stepping back and bringing him forward and down - the exact opposite motion from where the opponent's momentum is going. Tremendous strength would be need to force the attacker's head down and to the ground. Even in the video, against a compliant kid, the head did not seem to go down smoothly.

The bio-mechanics of these two parts contradict each other. This part of the technique will not work in actual application. Before the neck/head grab, there needs to be another strike or two to bring his head down and forward, such as an attack to his groin or knee. Only then would the pull to the back of the head and step back be sufficient to get to the end position for the finishing downward strike.

This just struck me as I watched the video. Most of what I remember of Ed Parker's techniques (he personally taught me Short 4, 'Open' Hand Set, and Dance of Death) they all flowed well with the opponent's natural reactions and in line with bio-mechanics.

I do not remember (unfortunately) much from that time long ago, but it may be possible something was either left out from the original design, or the end part shown for Darting Leaves is an poorly thought out extension added by some person unknown.
 

punisher73

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In the video on Darting Leaves you posted, it ends in the same kind of way as Charging Ram, in as much one hand guides the opponent forward and down, followed by a downward strike. This works in Charging Ram as the attacker's head is already low and his momentum is already going forward.

The 2nd half of Darting Leaves is much different, however. There is an upward elbow (opponent going up and back in reaction) followed by an open hand face strike (resulting in continuation of the up and back motion.) But this is followed by cupping the neck, stepping back and bringing him forward and down - the exact opposite motion from where the opponent's momentum is going. Tremendous strength would be need to force the attacker's head down and to the ground. Even in the video, against a compliant kid, the head did not seem to go down smoothly.

The bio-mechanics of these two parts contradict each other. This part of the technique will not work in actual application. Before the neck/head grab, there needs to be another strike or two to bring his head down and forward, such as an attack to his groin or knee. Only then would the pull to the back of the head and step back be sufficient to get to the end position for the finishing downward strike.

This just struck me as I watched the video. Most of what I remember of Ed Parker's techniques (he personally taught me Short 4, 'Open' Hand Set, and Dance of Death) they all flowed well with the opponent's natural reactions and in line with bio-mechanics.

I do not remember (unfortunately) much from that time long ago, but it may be possible something was either left out from the original design, or the end part shown for Darting Leaves is an poorly thought out extension added by some person unknown.
In that video, it looks like they added to the technique. The "original" technique ended after the eye poke, groin kick. It was very short as were most of Prof. Chow's techniques.
 

punisher73

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This is a good example that a from is created from application. When you train form like this, your training can map into your fighting.

I wish all the MA forms are created like this.

There was a karate historian by the name of Charles Goodin, I believe, who wrote an article on form/kata applications and he said to look at the kenpo self-defense techniques and you could find a lot of the applications you were looking for in the katas.
 
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