Dangers of Capitalism Growing

[MA-Caver]

First off don't get the idea that I'm some closet communist. But I do see what the "wolves" are wanting to do. This exerpt from a book "The Story of B" written by Daniel Quinn.

What works, evidently, is cultural diversity. This should not come as a surprise. If culture is viewed as a biological phenomenon, then we should expect to see diversity favored over uniformity. A thousand designs – one for every locale and situation – always works better than one design for all locales and situations. Birds are more likely to survive in ten thousand nest patterns than in one. Mammals are more likely to survive in ten thousand social patterns than in one. And humans are more likely to survive in ten thousand cultures than in one – as we are in the process of proving right now. We are in the process of making the world unlivable for ourselves – precisely because everyone is being forced to live a single way. There would be no problem if only one person in ten thousand lived the way we live. The problem appears only as we approach the point where only one person in ten thousand is permitted to live any other way than the way we live. In a world of ten thousand cultures, one culture can be completely mad and destructive, and little harm will be done. In a world of one culture – and that one culture completely mad and destructive – catastrophe is inevitable. So: tribal warfare – casual, intermittent, small scale and frequent – worked well for tribal peoples, because it safeguarded cultural diversity. It was not sweet or beautiful or angelic but it did work ... for hundreds of thousands of years, perhaps even millions of years.

It's one thing to help a country get rid of a despot/dictator. It's another to try and influence it to do things OUR way. The old "not quite that funny" joke about how we help out other countries to plant Walmarts and McDonalds in them. Before certain inventions came about many countries developed their own culture and way of doing things. Their own ways of dealing with crime, parental responsibility, religion, government and so forth. And by and large they thrived in their own way. The native Hawaiians are a good example, as well as the American Indian tribes, Australian aborigines, Maori's of New Zealand, African and South American natives ... they all had their own way of living within their respective spaces in the world however large or small. Yet over the years Capitalism has been growing, ready to jump at the opportunity of converting another culture to adopt it. I don't mind that we help out other countries that really can't help themselves but afterwards leave 'em alone. Let them pick up the pieces and start over hopefully smarter and wiser... but doing things their way.

 

[Tez3]

This is talking about Americanism not capitalism. It sounds like you think all other cultures and political societies aren't capitalist where actually a great many are and have been for longer than America has.

 

[crushing]

This is talking about Americanism not capitalism. It sounds like you think all other cultures and political societies aren't capitalist where actually a great many are and have been for longer than America has.

Americanism? Is that the new imperialism? Must be genetic.

 

[Tez3]

Americanism? Is that the new imperialism? Must be genetic.

It's a plot by the wicked American governments over whom you have no control and who like to blow you up (so I've been informed on the 9/11 thread) to take over the world because the government's secret agents believe all the world is socialist and need to be rescued from fresh food and vegtables and made to eat salt and sugar laden food while watching 'Friends' so we all weigh 20 st. and can't fight back.

 

[Xue Sheng]

This is talking about Americanism not capitalism. It sounds like you think all other cultures and political societies aren't capitalist where actually a great many are and have been for longer than America has.

Actually yes and no.. but mostly no, the quote Caver posted is not about Americanism, it is about conquest and subjugation and that is not unique to America, pick a society on the planet today and most of them are guilty of trying it or doing it at some point in their history… Ever hear of a little thing called Social Darwinism… sure you have.

Americanism

1: a characteristic feature of American English especially as contrasted with British English

2: attachment or allegiance to the traditions, interests, or ideals of the United States

3 a: a custom or trait peculiar to America b: the political principles and practices essential to American culture

And yes there is capitalism, by definition all over the place...even China

capitalism
1: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market

However what Caver is posting himself could be called Americanism in the 21st century…. But in my opinion it may not be and if it is it most certainly not the same Americanism we had in the 1940s or before…somewhere along the way (I blame the 60s and 70s) it changed and in that time many Americans forgot what being American meant. But Tez, lest we forget our history it was British Imperialism not too long ago… “The sun never sets on the British Empire”. And to be honest, I don’t agree with the American version or the British version or anyone elses version for that matter

 

[Xue Sheng]

It's a plot by the wicked American governments over whom you have no control and who like to blow you up (so I've been informed on the 9/11 thread) to take over the world because the government's secret agents believe all the world is socialist and need to be rescued from fresh food and vegtables and made to eat salt and sugar laden food while watching 'Friends' so we all weigh 20 st. and can't fight back.

OK that is just plain no :uhyeah:

Although being one that works for one of the minor governments I can say with some modicum of certainty that the majority in government don't care on little bit about those that voted them into office and many have become masters of subterfuge and most that voted them in fall for it hook line a sinker.... it is so much easier than thinking for ones self

 

[Tez3]

I don't disagree with the British Imperialism bit etc but I do question the OPs assumption that there's no capitalism outside America and I do think he's talking about making things American rather than capitalist. That can be debated as to whether it's happening or whether it's a good or bad but you can't say America is bringing capitalism to other countries, many, as I said were already capitalist.

 

[Ken Morgan]

“What works, evidently, is cultural diversity. This should not come as a surprise. If culture is viewed as a biological phenomenon, then we should expect to see diversity favoured over uniformity. A thousand designs – one for every locale and situation – always works better than one design for all locales and situations. Birds are more likely to survive in ten thousand nest patterns than in one. Mammals are more likely to survive in ten thousand social patterns than in one. And humans are more likely to survive in ten thousand cultures than in one – as we are in the process of proving right now.”

I disagree with his premise.

He is essentially saying globalization towards one culture is not good and multiple cultures are inherently good, but he comes to this conclusion how? What is he basing his conclusion on? What are his definitions of good and bad?

Cultures get rid of things they don’t like, don’t need or outgrow, like starvation, ignorance, and totalitarianism. As people we adapt things that make our life easier, or better, like democracy, education, human rights, and calorie rich foods.

People are the same the world over, we really are, so it would make sense that we would all gravite towards the same benefits.

 

[CoryKS]

I don't disagree with the British Imperialism bit etc but I do question the OPs assumption that there's no capitalism outside America and I do think he's talking about making things American rather than capitalist. That can be debated as to whether it's happening or whether it's a good or bad but you can't say America is bringing capitalism to other countries, many, as I said were already capitalist.

I think what the OP, or at least the article referenced by the OP, is going on about is a peculiar trait of Americans. Some among us tend to see the rest of the world as a museum of quaint cultural behaviors for them to go see and experience. They oppose "capitalism" or "Americanism" or whateverism because they can't tolerate seeing something as mundane and familiar as a McDonalds in an exotic location. They can't comprehend that a French person might actually choose to eat a Big Mac, so they cast it in terms of cultural aggression.

 

[Sukerkin]

Why are they called Big Mac's by the way, given that they are actually very small? Well, the awful version we get sold over here in 3rd World Post-Imperialist Britain is anyhow - the only thing you can taste is the gherkin (if that is what that green thingy is) :lol:.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I don't disagree with the British Imperialism bit etc but I do question the OPs assumption that there's no capitalism outside America and I do think he's talking about making things American rather than capitalist. That can be debated as to whether it's happening or whether it's a good or bad but you can't say America is bringing capitalism to other countries, many, as I said were already capitalist.

I also said there was Capitalism outside America and I never said or inferred America is bringing Capitalism to other countries.

And I am not so sure it has anything to do with making things American or Americanism we just happen to be the world villain at the moment... However it does have to do with making things corporate and homogenous therefore easier to control... however I will admit there are those in America that simply do not understand why others do not want to be just like us... but then some of those are working with rather antiquated ideas as to what other countries are like or they are simply looking at the money that can be made in other countries... how many Wal-Marts and McDonalds are in other countries now. But then there are a lot of people in other countries that are working with antiquated views of the USA too…basically people are people.

And to be incredibly honest, I doubt many have any idea what Americanism means inside the US borders little alone outside of them. You want to see someone disillusioned with the USA look to many immigrants that come here as well as a few of us that were born here… what they/we were taught in their/our country is generally not the reality these days.

 

[Xue Sheng]

“

I disagree with his premise.


He is essentially saying globalization towards one culture is not good and multiple cultures are inherently good, but he comes to this conclusion how? What is he basing his conclusion on? What are his definitions of good and bad?


Cultures get rid of things they don’t like, don’t need or outgrow, like starvation, ignorance, and totalitarianism. As people we adapt things that make our life easier, or better, like democracy, education, human rights, and calorie rich foods.

People are the same the world over, we really are, so it would make sense that we would all gravite towards the same benefits.

And I disagree with you... how do you come to the conclusion that diversity is bad? And how do you define good and bad?


Cultures do get rid of things they don't like but not all cultures get rid of the same things and not all culture needs the same things. Yes they tend to attempt to stamp out ignorance but not all cultures define ignorance the same. They also do not like Totalitarianism but that to can have various meanings depending on... the culture. Yes most want to make life easier and better but not all want democracy. Most want education but again they may not want to be educated in teh same things or emphasize the same things as important in education and they most certainly do not learn the same way, there are differnt views on that as well. And not all define Human rights the same. And not all go for Calorie rich foods either nor do the wnt them. I have said on many ocassions that if the rest of the world is smart they will avoid our food since we seem to be the only ones that can survive by eating thsi crap.

People are basically the same however the differences appear based on culture and not all cultures agree with how they should live and very few like being told they are wrong as it applies to their life and culture and very few like to be forced to change to another cultures view of things.

There have been psychological studies done that place the US and China at opposite poles of the spectrum, philosophically, Religiously, Governmentally and they also show that the closer you get to either of them the more similar those cultures become and they also say that in Europe you get a pretty good mix of both. And just looking at Russia you can see it change from East to West. Cultural diversity, in my opinion, is a good thing and likely not going away naturally at all and not going away anytime soon... if it does then you are back to totalitarianism. But then this is just the opinion of a cynical American so take it for what it is worth

 

[Tez3]

I think what the OP, or at least the article referenced by the OP, is going on about is a peculiar trait of Americans. Some among us tend to see the rest of the world as a museum of quaint cultural behaviors for them to go see and experience. They oppose "capitalism" or "Americanism" or whateverism because they can't tolerate seeing something as mundane and familiar as a McDonalds in an exotic location. They can't comprehend that a French person might actually choose to eat a Big Mac, so they cast it in terms of cultural aggression.

Do you mean Americans or non Americans? Sorry can't work out which you mean.

Sukerkin, tiddy as the 'Big Macs' are by all accounts they are healthier than their American cousins!
There is a very nice McDonalds just outside St. Tropez, it's very Gallic, with salads,fruit, mineral water and beer. You can sit outside on a balmy evening, with the Massif Maures behind you and the Med in front, very pleasant. In France it seems to be a place where you take the kids every so often, not for grown ups exactly but at least you can get mayonaise to put on your chips... sorry 'fries'.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Why are they called Big Mac's by the way, given that they are actually very small? Well, the awful version we get sold over here in 3rd World Post-Imperialist Britain is anyhow - the only thing you can taste is the gherkin (if that is what that green thingy is) :lol:.

Side note; McDonalds actually changes its menu depending on the country it is in and the culture it is selling to. In China Apple Pies go bad on the shelf so they sell as red bean past pie instead and all Chicken in McDonalds in Beijing is spicy... they are geniuses when it comes to figuring out what a country will eat, they also change it regionally in the US sometimes… so you only have yourselves to blame for the McDonald’s menu

By the way.... McDonalds is rather insidious that way

 

[Sukerkin]

Aye, the contrast with the ones we had when we were in Calgary ten years ago is quite marked :nods:.

I am being a bit unfair on them I suppose - you cannot expect anything decent that is dinged up by minimum wage staff for the drive-through window.

 

[Tez3]

Side note; McDonalds actually changes its menu depending on the country it is in and the culture it is selling to. In China Apple Pies go bad on the shelf so they sell as red bean past pie instead and all Chicken in McDonalds in Beijing is spicy... they are geniuses when it comes to figuring out what a country will eat, they also change it regionally in the US sometimes… so you only have yourselves to blame for the McDonald’s menu

By the way.... McDonalds is rather insidious that way

But they do employ local people and bring money into communities, used now and again they are no worse than many other places. I don't know if you have as many takeaways as we do which compete with them. We have the most sublime fish and chip shops, Indian, Italian, Chinese, Malay, Greek etc takeways. Up the road from me we have a Ghurkha takeaway as well. We have the Parmo places up in the NE, now you want to talk huge calories that is a parmo! this is America's worst contribution to our cuisine not McDonalds!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parmo

"In 2007 North Yorkshire Trading Standards conducted a survey of 25 fast food dishes. A large Parmo with chips and salad contains approximately 2600 calories and 150g of fat"

 

[CoryKS]

Do you mean Americans or non Americans? Sorry can't work out which you mean.

I suppose there are non-Americans who hold the same views, but by "they" I meant those Americans who would like to keep all other cultures free of American influence so they can have the "authentic experience" when they go abroad. Which is really all I believe this talk of skeery American capitalism amounts to. There's really no danger that we are going to morph into a single, monolithic culture or that we somehow become weaker because of cultural commonalities. The people who complain about this sort of thing just want all you foreigners to act according to your respective stereotypes.

 

[Tez3]

I suppose there are non-Americans who hold the same views, but by "they" I meant those Americans who would like to keep all other cultures free of American influence so they can have the "authentic experience" when they go abroad. Which is really all I believe this talk of skeery American capitalism amounts to. There's really no danger that we are going to morph into a single, monolithic culture or that we somehow become weaker because of cultural commonalities. The people who complain about this sort of thing just want all you foreigners to act according to your respective stereotypes.

Ah I see, cheers!

That stereotype of English people being well, English lol? Only English people aren't that English, we have those from the North East and West, we have Geordies, Brummies, Scousers and Yellowbellies, we have West Country folk, Cockneys, Black Country people as well as many others, none of them act 'English'. and it's the same in every country I've been in, each area, district or county is different. To be honest no amount of American so called influence is going to turn them into anything they aren't, hell, we can't even get some of them to speak proper English lol!

 

[Xue Sheng]

I don't know if you have as many takeaways as we do which compete with them.

Haven’t been here lately have you We call them fast food

Chinese takeout, Italian take out, heck name a culture and we have the takeout, Burger King, Wendy's, Pizza Hut, Papa Ginos, hot dog stands, hamburger stands, Dairy queen, Arby's, Au Bon Pain, KFC (Kentucky Fried Chicken), Dixy Chicken, Dunkin' Donuts, Hardee's, Krispy Kreme, Little Caesars, Long John Silvers, Popeye’s Chicken & Biscuits, Red Rooster, Taco Bell, Wimpy and White Castle just to name a few

"In 2007 North Yorkshire Trading Standards conducted a survey of 25 fast food dishes. A large Parmo with chips and salad contains approximately 2600 calories and 150g of fat"

Try anything at the 99 restaurant or Fridays or any number of the alleged sit down restaurant food chains....2600 calories...that ain't nothin'

Outback Steakhouse Aussie Cheese Fries with Ranch Dressing
2,900 calories
182 g fat
240 g carbs

 

[CoryKS]

Haven’t been here lately have you We call them fast food

Chinese takeout, Italian take out, heck name a culture and we have the takeout, Burger King, Wendy's, Pizza Hut, Papa Ginos, hot dog stands, hamburger stands, Dairy queen, Arby's, Au Bon Pain, KFC (Kentucky Fried Chicken), Dixy Chicken, Dunkin' Donuts, Hardee's, Krispy Kreme, Little Caesars, Long John Silvers, Popeye’s Chicken & Biscuits, Red Rooster, Taco Bell, Wimpy and White Castle just to name a few

Dammit! Now I'm all hungry. Can't decide if I'm going Chinese or Vietnamese for lunch today.