crossing legs?

[Enson]

k. thanks!

 

[sojobow]

I would put more faith into what's written here:
http://business.fortunecity.com/johns/510/kotoryu.html

Although, if you're just looking for information, the "Budo Daijiten" covers quite a bit, but of course there's alot more passed on through oral tradition.:asian:

Thanks. I'm listening.

 

[sojobow]

Also, to note, there is no such thing as a "Chinese ryu".

Sure there is. Here's one. http://business.fortunecity.com/johns/510/kotoryu.html
There are a few others. Guess it depends on the day in question.

 

[Xequat]

I'm not sure if you subscribe to the idea of pressure points and the 5 elemental cycle, but having your legs crossed is a "water" stance; therefore, if you strike someone in, say the temple, which is a fire point, then "water puts out fire" so to speak and you have a stronger attack. Some people buy it, others may not, some might never have heard of it, but it's another possible explanation. I find it hard to believe that any movements as distinct and obvious as crossing legs over like that don't have another purpose; I mean, why wouldn't you just sidestep to get into position for the next move in the kata? Just a thought - this elemental cycle/pressure point stuff is new to me.

 

[Enson]

this elemental cycle/pressure point stuff is new to me.

the "elemental cycle" is a very common practice in ninjutsu. we are big on that!
peace

 

[Cryozombie]

It is thought that the Koto Ryu came from China via Korea, brought by Chan Busho, a Chinese warrior, in the form similar to koshijutsu. Yet it would be many hundreds of years before the style was shaped into Koto Ryu.

That says, if I am reading it right that Koto Ryu came from China, but didn't become "Koto Ryu" for hundreds of years. I would be willing to bet, that in China it was not actually called Koto Ryu, but that is the name it was given in Japan, after it developed "hundreds of years later" and that author refered to it as "the Koto Ryu came from China via Korea" for simplicity sake, or because he lacked the accurate Chinese name for the art as it exsited in china.

 

[AaronLucia]

Thanks for the link.

 

[Xequat]

Very possible. For example, I take Shaolin-do. Well, "do" is a Japanese word and "Shaolin" is a Chinese art. From what I understand, it happened that in Indonesia, I believe, Shaolin masters were punished for teaching Chinese arts, but they were allowed to teach Japanese arts; therefore, they added the Japanese "do" to the end of their name to trick those who were against it. Sounds like folklore, but probably some truth in it.

 

[Jay Bell]

Technopunk - correct. Princples that many ages later developed into Koto ryu came from China.

Xequat - not so correct, that's just a story.

 

[Xequat]

Ah, good to know, thanks. Why is it called Shaolin-do then?

 

[Jay Bell]

Look around the net a bit, both pro and con on the stories behind Shaolin-do....some interesting reading.

 

[heretic888]

Sure there is. Here's one. http://business.fortunecity.com/johns/510/kotoryu.html
There are a few others. Guess it depends on the day in question.

In no way is Koto ryu a "Chinese ryu". It has its very beginnings based on concepts originating from China, but that's all.

That says, if I am reading it right that Koto Ryu came from China, but didn't become "Koto Ryu" for hundreds of years. I would be willing to bet, that in China it was not actually called Koto Ryu, but that is the name it was given in Japan, after it developed "hundreds of years later" and that author refered to it as "the Koto Ryu came from China via Korea" for simplicity sake, or because he lacked the accurate Chinese name for the art as it exsited in china.

Exactly, this would be like calling American kickboxing an "Oriental sport". Its just plain bad logic.

Laterz.

 

[Enson]

In no way is Koto ryu a "Chinese ryu". It has its very beginnings based on concepts originating from China, but that's all.



Exactly, this would be like calling American kickboxing an "Oriental sport". Its just plain bad logic.

Laterz.

now what does your entire post have to do about the original subject matter?:idunno:
peace

 

[heretic888]

now what does your entire post have to do about the original subject matter?

A little bit, actually.

The techniques being discussed come, in part, from Koto ryu. Koto ryu was claimed to be a "Chinese ryu" by one of the posters. I corrected that claim.

Laterz.

 

[sojobow]

I'm still apprehensive about crossing legs (or turning my back to someone for that matter). Some martial artist is simply just too darn fast and will see this opening and investigate it before we can reestablish strength positions. It (crossing legs) may look good in an exhibition of techniques, Kata or Forms. But, against a few people I know of, you would not be able to reorganize from the collapse.

 

[Don Roley]

I'm still apprehensive about crossing legs (or turning my back to someone for that matter). Some martial artist is simply just too darn fast and will see this opening and investigate it before we can reestablish strength positions. It (crossing legs) may look good in an exhibition of techniques, Kata or Forms. But, against a few people I know of, you would not be able to reorganize from the collapse.

Of course, you really do not know what you are talking about or have any experience with the move, do you? Not even a picture of an application.

Anything can be a suicide move if done at the wrong time or at the wrong angle. The key is know when to use it as well as how.

So this is not a case where you stand still in front of someone with your legs crossed. You really should see it in action in forms such as "Koyoku" to see why it can work very well instead of trying to set it up in situations where it would not be appropriate so that it will fail.

Of course, considering your limited experience in martial arts, it may be hard for you to imagine how it can be used effectivly in combat on your own. So you should seek out competent Silat players and ask them about Sempok if you are really insterested. Or Bagua guys, Bujinkan, etc.

 

[sojobow]

Of course, considering your limited experience in martial arts, it may be hard for you to imagine how it can be used effectivly in combat on your own. So you should seek out competent Silat players and ask them about Sempok if you are really insterested. Or Bagua guys, Bujinkan, etc.

Thanks for the advice but I'll just take my teacher's word for now. Actually, I'm NOT interested.

 

[Xequat]

I'm still apprehensive about crossing legs (or turning my back to someone for that matter). Some martial artist is simply just too darn fast and will see this opening and investigate it before we can reestablish strength positions. It (crossing legs) may look good in an exhibition of techniques, Kata or Forms. But, against a few people I know of, you would not be able to reorganize from the collapse.

I don't blame you. There are definitely moves that I am apprehensive about, too. But the crossing legs could have a couple of reasons that I can think of. I've already mentioned that it's a water stance, so if you want to attack a fire meridian, then it might help to be in a water stance, but I wouldn't go into one unless I had my opponent in my control because of the issues you have brought up with balance. For example, if someone grabs me with both hands or pushes me, I could trap their arms/hands against my body and cross my legs to bring us down farther while keeping my back straight and not bending over, making me more susceptible to other types of attacks and limiting my visibility. If I have a good wrist lock, then it could only make it stronger, esecially if I use the fire meridians for my wrist locks. The thing is, I don't think that kata moves are intended to look good for demos. I think that they all have some practical purpose, but it is not always obvious.

Make sense? It's all I can come up with for now, but I think it could be useful.

 

[Enson]

. But, I have absolutely no intention of starting a discussion about yoko aruki at all.

i went back to the library today and looked it up. it is called yoko o aruki. it explains that you can use the move to side step an on coming attacker. looks kinda silly!

peace

 

[sojobow]

i went back to the library today and looked it up. it is called yoko o aruki. it explains that you can use the move to side step an on coming attacker. looks kinda silly! peace

I think its called "Old School." Still think that in these times, you cross your legs, you turn your back, you even step backwards - You die. Swordman said "do nothing of no use" (or something like that). Pure concept of Ninjitsu, "Maintain your Triangles - destroy his" but, when he crosses his legs, he's done all the work for you.

As previously mentioned, looks good in Forms. Looks good in swinging that weapon. Looks good in exercise (cross your legs and bend at the waste), just don't try it when flying a plane. But don't listen to my apprehensions, Roley says I can't fight anyway. But I can cheat.