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Here is an excerpt about several Russian mma practicioners using the strikes in NHB competetions. Great read and you see how many russian mas use the same concepts.
Here are some highlights from a really good thread on mma.tv...
From: minotaurolover
Date: 04/29/04 04:47 PM
fedor punches in a strange - though very effective way. punching very fast, they loop from the outside in, like a whip. he turns his fist - which you can see here. anyone learning from his style?
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From: Elitevibe
Date: 04/29/04 04:50 PM
I noticed that when he fought Coleman , they look sloppy almost, but with technique. Interesting.
EV
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From: Racer X
Date: 04/29/04 04:51 PM
Trying to duplicate his punching mechanics feels very awkward to me, but it clearly works for him.
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From: alxh
Date: 04/29/04 05:01 PM
i noticed that herring is learning from fedor.. herring was whipping gnp punches from his shoulders now like fedor does, but not as fluid.
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From: Crazy Zimmerman
Date: 04/29/04 05:09 PM
Big George Foreman has a similar punch when he goes to the body. Looks like bad form but is murderously powerful.
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From: phatboy
Date: 04/29/04 05:19 PM
That punching technique is practiced in Russia .It is used in Systema and military.
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From: Ausgepicht
Date: 04/29/04 05:34 PM
phatboy is correct.
Scott Sonnon calls it casting. It has a sort of wave effect to it. If I recall correctly it's roots came from having to fight on slippery (ice) surfaces. You don't need to be that rooted for the return.
Aus
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From: Domingo
Date: 04/29/04 05:43 PM
Interesting. I just figured it was just a randomly unique way Fedor liked to throw punches. At first I *really* thought he was being sloppy until I saw how quickly he was able to retract those shots and how much power was behind them even when it looked like he had no base at all.
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From: BadBoy4Life
Date: 04/29/04 06:03 PM
I trained with a sombo guy a few times, he used to punch they same way and was ****in awesome.
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From: Luvmachine
Date: 04/29/04 06:08 PM
broken thumbs?
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From: minotaurolover
Date: 04/29/04 07:34 PM
Yeah I didn't even think of Igor - he punches like that too!
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From: Elitevibe
Date: 04/29/04 07:57 PM
I want to learn this technique, you know , I got a buddy of mine that punches hard as **** and he throws like that, he's German-Swedish. Is this a european/Russian thing?
Who legitamately knows abot this punching style?
Someone said it is called casting and is used by the Russian military?
Can someone confirm?
EV
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From: striker18
Date: 04/29/04 08:40 PM
What he is doing are called long hooks. Generally most American style boxers throw hooks and uppercuts in a short and tight style. However, people from countries that were once Communist and other parts of the world are taught to throw hooks and uppercuts this way. The same applies to uppercuts, though I haven't seen Fedor throw any uppercuts yet, I bet he throws them long style as well.
The only reason I know this is because both forum member punchdrunk27 and myself trained with someone off and on for a couple years who won his weight class in both Romania and Hungary and had over 300 fights in the process. Both David Tua's promoter and the same German boxing club that the LHW Darius fights out of begged him to fight pro for them, but I think after as many fights as he had, he was just tired of fighting.
Anyway, if you haven't ever trained with someone who can throw long hooks and uppercuts, you are in for a big shock the first time you fight or spar a guy who can.
Long hooks/uppercuts come in from an angle people aren't used to seeing, can be thrown from mid and long range (not just short range like the traditional hook), and in my experience generate more power than short hooks. That is pretty much what happened in the Goodridge/Fedor fight, where Fedor repeatedly landed long left and right hooks. It freaked Goodridge out since I doubt he has ever sparred or fought someone who can throw long european style hooks like that. I know I was shocked as hell the first time I was hit with long hooks and uppercuts because they were hard as hell, but I couldn't see where they coming from.
Anyway, long hooks are thrown pretty much the same way a jab or straight right would be, but instead of turning your wrist over and throwing it straight, you twist your forearm/wrist and bring out your elbow a little bit, but just as with a short hook, most of the movement is done with your hips and not your arm.
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From: Opash
Date: 04/29/04 08:49 PM
So what are the punches then?
Secret military ice fighting or rare forms of European boxing?
Either way they are very unique.
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From: striker18
Date: 04/29/04 09:04 PM
Posted by Sambosteve
It isn't really rare, just about anyone who learned to box in a communist or former communist nation will punch like that. However, most people haven't trained with someone like that, so it seems rare to us.
I have seen both of the Klitchko brothers throwing long hooks in boxing, though they generally sneak it in during combos and do it so fast most people wouldn't know what it was unless they were looking for it. Another MMA example besides Fedor would be Arlovski. Watch Arlovski a little bit closer next time, you will see he throws both long hooks and uppercuts.
I actually talked with Kirik about this very subject a couple years ago and tried to explain the mechanics of a long hook.
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05-22-2004, 12:35 PM #2 njudo vbmenu_register("postmenu_9", true);
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Posted bu Sambosteve
Arlovski throws long hooks and uppercuts, but his are a little bit tighter than Fedor's. The taller and lankier type fighters such as the Klitchkos throw long hooks, but they don't tend to loop them quite as much as the stockier framed fighters do. Watch Arlovski's fights with Vladdy and Cabbage again and you will see what I am talking about.
Opash,
They probably call it Russian punching because of the heavy influence the Soviet Union had on all of the other communist nations when it came to their amateur boxing programs. The Hungarian immigrant who coached me would always just call them long hooks and long uppercuts. I think it is typically Americans who refer to it as European style.
What is interesting is American boxers used to throw long hooks and uppercuts as well, but somehow that got lost here. Take a look at some Izzard Charles, Jerzey Joe Walcott, or Archie Moore footage and you'll see long hooks and uppercuts being thrown with great success.
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From: Elitevibe
Date: 04/29/04 11:07 PM
"What is interesting is American boxers used to throw long hooks and uppercuts as well, but somehow that got lost here. Take a look at some Izzard Charles, Jerzey Joe Walcott, or Archie Moore footage and you'll see long hooks and uppercuts being thrown with great success. "
That is very true Striker18. In can remember tape of Jersey Joe throwing it now that you mentioned it.
Watch the epic Jersey Joe vs R.Marciano for examples of this, interesting thing is that Marciano throughout that fight was throwing the short crisp hook and eventually caught Jersy Joe with one and kod him with it, so that's one example where the short hook was very effective, but that's also boxing, not MMA.
You know another observation, with the "classic american" or what could be called the conventional hooks, a fighter has to come closer to his opponent and therefore in a way is a target coming in, this is dangerous if your opponent beats you to the punch and lands his shot as you're stepping in to deliver( the closeness).
For MMA, I've always thought that the conventional hook should always be used in a judicious manner, for one also is in clinch-up distance often with these shorter hooks, so if one does not want to get clinched by a, say Randy Couture , well then one should stick to the distance hooks/russian hooks, unless of course you are comfortable otherwise or are a wizard with both hands like Vitor Belfort.
Hey I learned something on the UG today, I'll be practicing my Russian hooks soon.
Thanks Striker18, MinotauroLover and all the rest of the guys who helped dissect this technique.
EV
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From: androushka
Date: 04/30/04 04:12 AM
A good detail with twisting a punch that way is that it makes the shoulder come up closer to the chin more naturally, at least for me (small shoulders, long arms). When I trained in Thailand they made me twist all punches in crazy ways, even throw straight punches with the thumb facing straight down. My defence got better. When I throw hooks the tight/american way there tend to be a larger gap between shoulder and chin. Seems to be less of a problem for "bulldog"-built guys though
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From: spinfamous
Date: 04/30/04 05:29 AM
our sambo teacher taught us to use those punches. he had a soviet military background in systema. it's like a hook thrown from the shoulder and pulled back with a whip motion.
if do right no can defend.
NOTE-SPINFAMOUS AND I BOTH TRAINED UNDER ALEXANDER BARAKOV
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From: poobear
Date: 04/30/04 09:13 AM
I learned those in systema, and also know a boxer from uzbekistan who was also taught to use those. Eastern European/ex-commie thing. The roots of it I don't know, but I understand that some internal TCMA's have a similar delivery method.
I've blasted guys off their feet with one of those, just to the chest. The trick is to make it come out of whatever movement you're doing without breaking the flow, as opposed to 1)plant your feet, 2) throw the shot, 3) pull back to gaurd 4) repeat.
Too bad Pride doesn't allow elbows, you can often work an elbow in off the same otion...
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From: bhamill
Date: 04/30/04 11:42 AM
Interseting thread. One of the best technical informitive I've read. Good job, esp Stiker18. I've "always" thrown punches like that (the hooks, not so much the uppercuts) when I'm in a situation where I don't have time to plant my feet. The thing is it seems that you can generate the power normally due to good footing by utilizing gravity instead. When you end the punch by turning it over that much and your elbow is facing up thumb down, it almost like you are pulling the punch down and gravity is pulling your body the same direction. I tend to really twist my torso into it, not just turn over the arm. Don't know if I'm explaining myself well, but you get the idea I guess. When I throw it off the lead I find my face/chin is tucked down against and behind the lead shoulder so it is good defensively for me as well.
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From: Ausgepicht
Date: 04/30/04 11:50 AM
I found a video of some guys training it in Russia. These guys look a little silly, but you will get the idea.
BTW, there are a ***** load of vid clips.
http://www.systemauk.com/video2.htm
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From: OnDaMat
Date: 05/01/04 06:08 AM
thread of the year IMO. I find slapping the bag a bit helps relax the shoulders before throwing these kind of punches. I saw Mantis Kungfu guys throwing similar punches when I was in China...the didn't hit like Fedor though...
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From: Ghost
Date: 05/01/04 09:14 AM
"Scott Sonnon calls it casting."
I've heard it called that too, in reference to the way a fisherman casts his pole. Good way to describe the methodology, too... you know where that line's goin, but you're throwin it wide to give it the range to get there.
This can be an effective way of throwing off balance strikes that your opponent does not see coming, mainly because you're throwing the strikes from outside of his perceivable line of sight in the heat of a moment when he's most likely got his hands at an awkward angle in an attempt to fire on you. If you can move well and throw them bows, you're prime for this kind of striking.
I'd also like to go on the record for those who don't have first hand experience with this, and say that MMA Striking and Boxing Striking are much, much different. Some of the ethics and principles apply, and I would recommend the two as a combination workout to anybody serious about the game (for sake of keeping those principles fresh), but to me it's like the difference between gi and no-gi. Boxing gives you close to 10 more ozs of padding between you and your opponent, and that can be a lot... the difference between throwin rocks and having a pillow fight, literally. Blocking, range striking, parrying and countering... many aspects of these elements change when making the transition.
The fact that Tito was training with a boxer for his match with Chuck could be a positive in many ways, but if you notice, he was blocking like a boxer, and Chuck struck right through it. This is a good example of the transitionary differences between mma and boxing strikes. Fedor's got it down.
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05-22-2004, 12:35 PM #3 njudo vbmenu_register("postmenu_10", true);
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Posted by sambosteve
From: Biggy
Date: 05/04/04 02:19 PM
Although this punching style gives Fedor alot of power when he ground and pounds, I am not sure its the only reason for how hard he hits from the guard. Kharitonov also showed hard ground and pound when he fought Cory Peterson, but his punches were a little more straight. I think Russian Top Team spends a good amount of time in their training on hitting pads on the ground.
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From: Ghost
In regards to what we've been talking about.
I've read over some of the debates here, and I'm rather impressed by the insights of various users here. In MMA, we're presented with variety on every scale, and striking is no different. Thanks to those of you who are as wise in this, as we're in a good position to educate others here.
Fedor's punching style isn't something I'd call european, or even foreign, by any means. Rather, boxing in and of itself... the art of throwing the hook, the cross, and the jab, footwork, moving, etc... has become somewhat Americanized, and with that, has brought many elements to the art of striking that have become standard, as they've been proven effective time and time again by athletes long preceeding us.
"Range striking", as I've call it, can be used effectively in a variety of ways, mainly in combination with effective footwork and positioning, or as an "X-factor" in a combination that takes your opponent's eyes off of your attack for even a second, such as momentum-driven hooks.
The processes for building up strength and speed with these punches are different than that of the high-repetition stress workouts we conventionally do in boxing. Rather, when training effective range striking, I'm finding myself doing sets wide-grip (pull-ups and push-ups, benches and militaries), as well as resistance (rubber band) repetition workouts. Reason? Compact strength (tight style... think boxing) is distributed from one place, while range strength can come from anywhere at anytime.
By no means do I consider range striking an effective method in all situations, but in instances where your opponent is retreating or backed into a corner, there's no better way to effectivly isolate your opponent than to start throwing bombs from where he doesn't see them. More often than not, it scares him into rigidity, and sets up the fight-winner (kick, punch, knockdown) in a striking situation.
There was an argument earlier about how someone saw short hooks and straight punches as a quick and effective counter to this style... and that is very, very true... if you walk into the flurry of a puncher throwing wing bombs and looping punches, yer asking for it. However, say you go toe to toe enough to land a good one and stumble your opponent... it may be a good time to pivot and dig in to one side, and let er rip from where he doesn't see it coming. The ones you don't see ALWAYS hurt more than the ones you do.
You'll notice Chuck used this style YEARS before Fedor unleashed upon Pride with it. You HAVE to know that Pitmaster's been workin it.
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From: Ausgepicht
Date: 05/05/04 09:03 AM
Ghost:
I respectfully disagree that Chuck throws his punches like that. Chuck swings and lobs, Fedor casts and waves.
Also, as for it not being foreign...casting and waving have been a part of Russian MAs for hundreds of years. I can count the times of have seen Americans/Westerns use casting and waving on one finger.
Otherwise, nice post!
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From: Ghost
Date: 05/05/04 12:03 PM
"I respectfully disagree that Chuck throws his punches like that. Chuck swings and lobs, Fedor casts and waves.
Also, as for it not being foreign...casting and waving have been a part of Russian MAs for hundreds of years."
It's not that I'm so much saying that the difference between the styles is based upon geography,... what I AM saying, however, is that "conventional striking" as we know it has tended to lean more towards compact stylings, which leaves little room for expansive understanding of techniques such as casting, or range striking. Hence why I said compact striking is more "Americanized"... people thinkin Striking, they think Boxing most of the time, not Russian Military.
Boxing coaches would bust my chops till the bitter end if they saw me throwing some of the punches Fedor and Chuck throw, and if you really narrow it down there Ausgepicht, you'll see the two styles aren't much different at all. Chuck is a little more deliberate with his straight punches than Fedor, but other than that, I see very few nuances between the two essentials in their technique.
Good debate though, BRO.
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From: CANADIAN
Date: 05/05/04 05:52 PM
This is a very good thread, and shows how even mma fans are starting to see stengths and weaknesses of styles etc. And not just a guy just punching. But to analize what is actually going on. I really feel that some of the best strikers out thier have been using this style or somthing similar to it, like Fedor, Igor Vovchanchyn, Liddel a bit and even a little of tank abbot.
This might be one of the best striking pucnching styles for a street fight since it seems to take out guys so fast with so much power etc. I feel though that it will also be a reason of Fedors down fall. someone will catch him while he is doing those looping punches coz it leaves his head open for brief periods. And this may very well be the way to beat him. S straight puncher like Mino might be able to pull it off if he continues to work on his boxing skills.
Has anyone ever been succesfull in pro boxing with this style ever before? and what happens when a boxer with this style fights another boxer? Since thier are not any pro boxers out thier that are succesfull with this style, I would think it might have it's weakness thier.
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From: Biggy
Date: 05/05/04 12:57 PM
sorry to hijack this thread guys but watch the last few seconds of this vid... it has guys doing some group sparring outside..... its some funny lookin **** although I imagine there is a purpose for it.
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From: poobear
Date: 05/06/04 06:51 AM
The guys on the video aren't doing systema, although the striking elements are common to both styles. That's another style of Russian martial art called (iirc) Slaviano Gretska'y Borba (spelling sucks). Means 'hill wrestling'. They claim inheritors of a Russian peasant tradition. A 'folk style'.
Systema (by which I mean systema as taught by Mssrs. Vasiliev and Ryabko) is a synthetic, imo, in that it includes elements from many traditions. It is a military style, although apparently the breathing component comes from the Russian Orthodox Church's monastic prayer rituals.
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From: SamboSteve
Date: 05/06/04 07:29 AM
Hi all,
I have read most of this thread...good one! Just a personal note on Fedor's punching style. This is classic Combat Sambo as I was taught it. All the comments throughout the thread regarding it's typical nature in Russian/former Soviet regions and folk styles rings true to me. My teacher used to talk about this type of punching all the time. This type of hooking punch, aside from coming in from great unfamiliar angles, can also work very well to open up an opponant's cover. We train to use these looping overhands to get inside and pull away the arms of someone who is classically covered up tight or to strike and drive the arm down and in for a throw entrance. I loved when I watching Fedor use it. I have a few classically trained boxers in my school and once they adapt to the "strangness" of the movements, they incorporate it nicely.
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From: Ausgepicht
Date: 05/06/04 07:58 AM
Nice info SS!!
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From: LEMon
Date: 05/08/04 02:40 AM
SS could give more details dude sounds interesting?
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From: SamboSteve
Date: 05/08/04 12:10 PM
It is solid stuff...we work it all the time. These are tough to describe in words...
Imagine your opponant is covered up real tight - hands to face, elbows to waist. A downward twisting overhand can enter the small gap in his arms better than a straight out hook. It is the "downward and twisting" motion that gets in. The strike usually hits the ear, Mandibular area, or cheek bone...the notion is that the strike is really only in passing as you enter his cover. It does not stop at his face. Continue the motion down and weave your arm in for a grip - under hook his arm, wrap to his back, or down to legs for a pick up for example. When executing this type (or any) of overhand, be sure to keep you shoulder shrugged to cover your chin and jugular.
Another variation is more of a hooking type strike where you continue the motion down and back in a circular move - to hook his arm away from his face. This leaves him open for a cross or secondary strike from the same arm you hooked with.
Does this make sense?
Here are some highlights from a really good thread on mma.tv...
From: minotaurolover
Date: 04/29/04 04:47 PM
fedor punches in a strange - though very effective way. punching very fast, they loop from the outside in, like a whip. he turns his fist - which you can see here. anyone learning from his style?
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From: Elitevibe
Date: 04/29/04 04:50 PM
I noticed that when he fought Coleman , they look sloppy almost, but with technique. Interesting.
EV
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From: Racer X
Date: 04/29/04 04:51 PM
Trying to duplicate his punching mechanics feels very awkward to me, but it clearly works for him.
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From: alxh
Date: 04/29/04 05:01 PM
i noticed that herring is learning from fedor.. herring was whipping gnp punches from his shoulders now like fedor does, but not as fluid.
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From: Crazy Zimmerman
Date: 04/29/04 05:09 PM
Big George Foreman has a similar punch when he goes to the body. Looks like bad form but is murderously powerful.
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From: phatboy
Date: 04/29/04 05:19 PM
That punching technique is practiced in Russia .It is used in Systema and military.
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From: Ausgepicht
Date: 04/29/04 05:34 PM
phatboy is correct.
Scott Sonnon calls it casting. It has a sort of wave effect to it. If I recall correctly it's roots came from having to fight on slippery (ice) surfaces. You don't need to be that rooted for the return.
Aus
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From: Domingo
Date: 04/29/04 05:43 PM
Interesting. I just figured it was just a randomly unique way Fedor liked to throw punches. At first I *really* thought he was being sloppy until I saw how quickly he was able to retract those shots and how much power was behind them even when it looked like he had no base at all.
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From: BadBoy4Life
Date: 04/29/04 06:03 PM
I trained with a sombo guy a few times, he used to punch they same way and was ****in awesome.
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From: Luvmachine
Date: 04/29/04 06:08 PM
broken thumbs?
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From: minotaurolover
Date: 04/29/04 07:34 PM
Yeah I didn't even think of Igor - he punches like that too!
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From: Elitevibe
Date: 04/29/04 07:57 PM
I want to learn this technique, you know , I got a buddy of mine that punches hard as **** and he throws like that, he's German-Swedish. Is this a european/Russian thing?
Who legitamately knows abot this punching style?
Someone said it is called casting and is used by the Russian military?
Can someone confirm?
EV
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From: striker18
Date: 04/29/04 08:40 PM
What he is doing are called long hooks. Generally most American style boxers throw hooks and uppercuts in a short and tight style. However, people from countries that were once Communist and other parts of the world are taught to throw hooks and uppercuts this way. The same applies to uppercuts, though I haven't seen Fedor throw any uppercuts yet, I bet he throws them long style as well.
The only reason I know this is because both forum member punchdrunk27 and myself trained with someone off and on for a couple years who won his weight class in both Romania and Hungary and had over 300 fights in the process. Both David Tua's promoter and the same German boxing club that the LHW Darius fights out of begged him to fight pro for them, but I think after as many fights as he had, he was just tired of fighting.
Anyway, if you haven't ever trained with someone who can throw long hooks and uppercuts, you are in for a big shock the first time you fight or spar a guy who can.
Long hooks/uppercuts come in from an angle people aren't used to seeing, can be thrown from mid and long range (not just short range like the traditional hook), and in my experience generate more power than short hooks. That is pretty much what happened in the Goodridge/Fedor fight, where Fedor repeatedly landed long left and right hooks. It freaked Goodridge out since I doubt he has ever sparred or fought someone who can throw long european style hooks like that. I know I was shocked as hell the first time I was hit with long hooks and uppercuts because they were hard as hell, but I couldn't see where they coming from.
Anyway, long hooks are thrown pretty much the same way a jab or straight right would be, but instead of turning your wrist over and throwing it straight, you twist your forearm/wrist and bring out your elbow a little bit, but just as with a short hook, most of the movement is done with your hips and not your arm.
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From: Opash
Date: 04/29/04 08:49 PM
So what are the punches then?
Secret military ice fighting or rare forms of European boxing?
Either way they are very unique.
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From: striker18
Date: 04/29/04 09:04 PM
Posted by Sambosteve
It isn't really rare, just about anyone who learned to box in a communist or former communist nation will punch like that. However, most people haven't trained with someone like that, so it seems rare to us.
I have seen both of the Klitchko brothers throwing long hooks in boxing, though they generally sneak it in during combos and do it so fast most people wouldn't know what it was unless they were looking for it. Another MMA example besides Fedor would be Arlovski. Watch Arlovski a little bit closer next time, you will see he throws both long hooks and uppercuts.
I actually talked with Kirik about this very subject a couple years ago and tried to explain the mechanics of a long hook.
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Posted bu Sambosteve
Arlovski throws long hooks and uppercuts, but his are a little bit tighter than Fedor's. The taller and lankier type fighters such as the Klitchkos throw long hooks, but they don't tend to loop them quite as much as the stockier framed fighters do. Watch Arlovski's fights with Vladdy and Cabbage again and you will see what I am talking about.
Opash,
They probably call it Russian punching because of the heavy influence the Soviet Union had on all of the other communist nations when it came to their amateur boxing programs. The Hungarian immigrant who coached me would always just call them long hooks and long uppercuts. I think it is typically Americans who refer to it as European style.
What is interesting is American boxers used to throw long hooks and uppercuts as well, but somehow that got lost here. Take a look at some Izzard Charles, Jerzey Joe Walcott, or Archie Moore footage and you'll see long hooks and uppercuts being thrown with great success.
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From: Elitevibe
Date: 04/29/04 11:07 PM
"What is interesting is American boxers used to throw long hooks and uppercuts as well, but somehow that got lost here. Take a look at some Izzard Charles, Jerzey Joe Walcott, or Archie Moore footage and you'll see long hooks and uppercuts being thrown with great success. "
That is very true Striker18. In can remember tape of Jersey Joe throwing it now that you mentioned it.
Watch the epic Jersey Joe vs R.Marciano for examples of this, interesting thing is that Marciano throughout that fight was throwing the short crisp hook and eventually caught Jersy Joe with one and kod him with it, so that's one example where the short hook was very effective, but that's also boxing, not MMA.
You know another observation, with the "classic american" or what could be called the conventional hooks, a fighter has to come closer to his opponent and therefore in a way is a target coming in, this is dangerous if your opponent beats you to the punch and lands his shot as you're stepping in to deliver( the closeness).
For MMA, I've always thought that the conventional hook should always be used in a judicious manner, for one also is in clinch-up distance often with these shorter hooks, so if one does not want to get clinched by a, say Randy Couture , well then one should stick to the distance hooks/russian hooks, unless of course you are comfortable otherwise or are a wizard with both hands like Vitor Belfort.
Hey I learned something on the UG today, I'll be practicing my Russian hooks soon.
Thanks Striker18, MinotauroLover and all the rest of the guys who helped dissect this technique.
EV
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From: androushka
Date: 04/30/04 04:12 AM
A good detail with twisting a punch that way is that it makes the shoulder come up closer to the chin more naturally, at least for me (small shoulders, long arms). When I trained in Thailand they made me twist all punches in crazy ways, even throw straight punches with the thumb facing straight down. My defence got better. When I throw hooks the tight/american way there tend to be a larger gap between shoulder and chin. Seems to be less of a problem for "bulldog"-built guys though
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From: spinfamous
Date: 04/30/04 05:29 AM
our sambo teacher taught us to use those punches. he had a soviet military background in systema. it's like a hook thrown from the shoulder and pulled back with a whip motion.
if do right no can defend.
NOTE-SPINFAMOUS AND I BOTH TRAINED UNDER ALEXANDER BARAKOV
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From: poobear
Date: 04/30/04 09:13 AM
I learned those in systema, and also know a boxer from uzbekistan who was also taught to use those. Eastern European/ex-commie thing. The roots of it I don't know, but I understand that some internal TCMA's have a similar delivery method.
I've blasted guys off their feet with one of those, just to the chest. The trick is to make it come out of whatever movement you're doing without breaking the flow, as opposed to 1)plant your feet, 2) throw the shot, 3) pull back to gaurd 4) repeat.
Too bad Pride doesn't allow elbows, you can often work an elbow in off the same otion...
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From: bhamill
Date: 04/30/04 11:42 AM
Interseting thread. One of the best technical informitive I've read. Good job, esp Stiker18. I've "always" thrown punches like that (the hooks, not so much the uppercuts) when I'm in a situation where I don't have time to plant my feet. The thing is it seems that you can generate the power normally due to good footing by utilizing gravity instead. When you end the punch by turning it over that much and your elbow is facing up thumb down, it almost like you are pulling the punch down and gravity is pulling your body the same direction. I tend to really twist my torso into it, not just turn over the arm. Don't know if I'm explaining myself well, but you get the idea I guess. When I throw it off the lead I find my face/chin is tucked down against and behind the lead shoulder so it is good defensively for me as well.
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From: Ausgepicht
Date: 04/30/04 11:50 AM
I found a video of some guys training it in Russia. These guys look a little silly, but you will get the idea.
BTW, there are a ***** load of vid clips.
http://www.systemauk.com/video2.htm
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From: OnDaMat
Date: 05/01/04 06:08 AM
thread of the year IMO. I find slapping the bag a bit helps relax the shoulders before throwing these kind of punches. I saw Mantis Kungfu guys throwing similar punches when I was in China...the didn't hit like Fedor though...
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From: Ghost
Date: 05/01/04 09:14 AM
"Scott Sonnon calls it casting."
I've heard it called that too, in reference to the way a fisherman casts his pole. Good way to describe the methodology, too... you know where that line's goin, but you're throwin it wide to give it the range to get there.
This can be an effective way of throwing off balance strikes that your opponent does not see coming, mainly because you're throwing the strikes from outside of his perceivable line of sight in the heat of a moment when he's most likely got his hands at an awkward angle in an attempt to fire on you. If you can move well and throw them bows, you're prime for this kind of striking.
I'd also like to go on the record for those who don't have first hand experience with this, and say that MMA Striking and Boxing Striking are much, much different. Some of the ethics and principles apply, and I would recommend the two as a combination workout to anybody serious about the game (for sake of keeping those principles fresh), but to me it's like the difference between gi and no-gi. Boxing gives you close to 10 more ozs of padding between you and your opponent, and that can be a lot... the difference between throwin rocks and having a pillow fight, literally. Blocking, range striking, parrying and countering... many aspects of these elements change when making the transition.
The fact that Tito was training with a boxer for his match with Chuck could be a positive in many ways, but if you notice, he was blocking like a boxer, and Chuck struck right through it. This is a good example of the transitionary differences between mma and boxing strikes. Fedor's got it down.
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Posted by sambosteve
From: Biggy
Date: 05/04/04 02:19 PM
Although this punching style gives Fedor alot of power when he ground and pounds, I am not sure its the only reason for how hard he hits from the guard. Kharitonov also showed hard ground and pound when he fought Cory Peterson, but his punches were a little more straight. I think Russian Top Team spends a good amount of time in their training on hitting pads on the ground.
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From: Ghost
In regards to what we've been talking about.
I've read over some of the debates here, and I'm rather impressed by the insights of various users here. In MMA, we're presented with variety on every scale, and striking is no different. Thanks to those of you who are as wise in this, as we're in a good position to educate others here.
Fedor's punching style isn't something I'd call european, or even foreign, by any means. Rather, boxing in and of itself... the art of throwing the hook, the cross, and the jab, footwork, moving, etc... has become somewhat Americanized, and with that, has brought many elements to the art of striking that have become standard, as they've been proven effective time and time again by athletes long preceeding us.
"Range striking", as I've call it, can be used effectively in a variety of ways, mainly in combination with effective footwork and positioning, or as an "X-factor" in a combination that takes your opponent's eyes off of your attack for even a second, such as momentum-driven hooks.
The processes for building up strength and speed with these punches are different than that of the high-repetition stress workouts we conventionally do in boxing. Rather, when training effective range striking, I'm finding myself doing sets wide-grip (pull-ups and push-ups, benches and militaries), as well as resistance (rubber band) repetition workouts. Reason? Compact strength (tight style... think boxing) is distributed from one place, while range strength can come from anywhere at anytime.
By no means do I consider range striking an effective method in all situations, but in instances where your opponent is retreating or backed into a corner, there's no better way to effectivly isolate your opponent than to start throwing bombs from where he doesn't see them. More often than not, it scares him into rigidity, and sets up the fight-winner (kick, punch, knockdown) in a striking situation.
There was an argument earlier about how someone saw short hooks and straight punches as a quick and effective counter to this style... and that is very, very true... if you walk into the flurry of a puncher throwing wing bombs and looping punches, yer asking for it. However, say you go toe to toe enough to land a good one and stumble your opponent... it may be a good time to pivot and dig in to one side, and let er rip from where he doesn't see it coming. The ones you don't see ALWAYS hurt more than the ones you do.
You'll notice Chuck used this style YEARS before Fedor unleashed upon Pride with it. You HAVE to know that Pitmaster's been workin it.
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From: Ausgepicht
Date: 05/05/04 09:03 AM
Ghost:
I respectfully disagree that Chuck throws his punches like that. Chuck swings and lobs, Fedor casts and waves.
Also, as for it not being foreign...casting and waving have been a part of Russian MAs for hundreds of years. I can count the times of have seen Americans/Westerns use casting and waving on one finger.
Otherwise, nice post!
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From: Ghost
Date: 05/05/04 12:03 PM
"I respectfully disagree that Chuck throws his punches like that. Chuck swings and lobs, Fedor casts and waves.
Also, as for it not being foreign...casting and waving have been a part of Russian MAs for hundreds of years."
It's not that I'm so much saying that the difference between the styles is based upon geography,... what I AM saying, however, is that "conventional striking" as we know it has tended to lean more towards compact stylings, which leaves little room for expansive understanding of techniques such as casting, or range striking. Hence why I said compact striking is more "Americanized"... people thinkin Striking, they think Boxing most of the time, not Russian Military.
Boxing coaches would bust my chops till the bitter end if they saw me throwing some of the punches Fedor and Chuck throw, and if you really narrow it down there Ausgepicht, you'll see the two styles aren't much different at all. Chuck is a little more deliberate with his straight punches than Fedor, but other than that, I see very few nuances between the two essentials in their technique.
Good debate though, BRO.
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From: CANADIAN
Date: 05/05/04 05:52 PM
This is a very good thread, and shows how even mma fans are starting to see stengths and weaknesses of styles etc. And not just a guy just punching. But to analize what is actually going on. I really feel that some of the best strikers out thier have been using this style or somthing similar to it, like Fedor, Igor Vovchanchyn, Liddel a bit and even a little of tank abbot.
This might be one of the best striking pucnching styles for a street fight since it seems to take out guys so fast with so much power etc. I feel though that it will also be a reason of Fedors down fall. someone will catch him while he is doing those looping punches coz it leaves his head open for brief periods. And this may very well be the way to beat him. S straight puncher like Mino might be able to pull it off if he continues to work on his boxing skills.
Has anyone ever been succesfull in pro boxing with this style ever before? and what happens when a boxer with this style fights another boxer? Since thier are not any pro boxers out thier that are succesfull with this style, I would think it might have it's weakness thier.
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From: Biggy
Date: 05/05/04 12:57 PM
sorry to hijack this thread guys but watch the last few seconds of this vid... it has guys doing some group sparring outside..... its some funny lookin **** although I imagine there is a purpose for it.
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From: poobear
Date: 05/06/04 06:51 AM
The guys on the video aren't doing systema, although the striking elements are common to both styles. That's another style of Russian martial art called (iirc) Slaviano Gretska'y Borba (spelling sucks). Means 'hill wrestling'. They claim inheritors of a Russian peasant tradition. A 'folk style'.
Systema (by which I mean systema as taught by Mssrs. Vasiliev and Ryabko) is a synthetic, imo, in that it includes elements from many traditions. It is a military style, although apparently the breathing component comes from the Russian Orthodox Church's monastic prayer rituals.
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From: SamboSteve
Date: 05/06/04 07:29 AM
Hi all,
I have read most of this thread...good one! Just a personal note on Fedor's punching style. This is classic Combat Sambo as I was taught it. All the comments throughout the thread regarding it's typical nature in Russian/former Soviet regions and folk styles rings true to me. My teacher used to talk about this type of punching all the time. This type of hooking punch, aside from coming in from great unfamiliar angles, can also work very well to open up an opponant's cover. We train to use these looping overhands to get inside and pull away the arms of someone who is classically covered up tight or to strike and drive the arm down and in for a throw entrance. I loved when I watching Fedor use it. I have a few classically trained boxers in my school and once they adapt to the "strangness" of the movements, they incorporate it nicely.
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From: Ausgepicht
Date: 05/06/04 07:58 AM
Nice info SS!!
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From: LEMon
Date: 05/08/04 02:40 AM
SS could give more details dude sounds interesting?
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From: SamboSteve
Date: 05/08/04 12:10 PM
It is solid stuff...we work it all the time. These are tough to describe in words...
Imagine your opponant is covered up real tight - hands to face, elbows to waist. A downward twisting overhand can enter the small gap in his arms better than a straight out hook. It is the "downward and twisting" motion that gets in. The strike usually hits the ear, Mandibular area, or cheek bone...the notion is that the strike is really only in passing as you enter his cover. It does not stop at his face. Continue the motion down and weave your arm in for a grip - under hook his arm, wrap to his back, or down to legs for a pick up for example. When executing this type (or any) of overhand, be sure to keep you shoulder shrugged to cover your chin and jugular.
Another variation is more of a hooking type strike where you continue the motion down and back in a circular move - to hook his arm away from his face. This leaves him open for a cross or secondary strike from the same arm you hooked with.
Does this make sense?
