"Common" Moves Not Found in Forms

[Flying Crane]

Why do you think that I care to discuss about something that I don't train?

You have just forced to to prove that I do train WC.

Here is the proof. Video was taken in UT Austin kung fu informal class back in 1974.

Are you telling me that you continue to train and practice taiji and wing Chun? You received training of a level of quality and consistency to merit being an instructor of those two methods?

Because all I’ve seen you talk about here is how you trained taiji as a young child, and it failed you when you got in a fight, and how you feel wing Chun is lacking just about everything that you feel is important.

So are you a taiji and wing Chun guy right now, today, or is that something in the distant past?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Very good point…they’re not ‘fighting scenarios’ even small fragments of kata. This idea needs to be scrubbed from people’s minds! I go further and say kata bear no resemblance, at all, to combat. They do teach balance, body and foot movements in idealised, optimal situations on a nice smooth surface and look beautiful etc . But other than that 🤷🏽‍♂️

The only caveat I’d toss in is that there are some kata that at least intend to include “phrases” that could work in combat, much like a boxer might practice a specific series of footwork and punches over and over in shadow boxing or on the mitts.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Funny I have wobble boards and use them to train also!!! It's like using the best thing available to get the max benefit with the shortest amount of time.

I should really bowl out on this. I am all about improving from existing technologies. Not that I don't honor the great minds of the pass. The world is different, we concentrate in learn the past and then concentrate on improving from it. We honor the great minds of the pass, but we move on from that.

Even now at my age, everyday I spend 1/2hr after waking up and just lie in bed, thinking of different things and how I can find a better way to achieve the goal. Of cause not all are MA related, it's just everything, from electronics design, everyday problem solving, exercise for injury recovery.......Just whatever comes to mind, just constantly trying to improve whatever I have and learned. I solved most of the issues and create new idea in my career like that and I own 3 US patents and published papers in the American Institute of Physics. Just keep on challenge the existing stuffs.

I honor Issac Newton, but most of his stuffs were overturned. I honor Beatles for creating a completely new trend. But to be honest, their technique and skill are so so so behind. I honor them for being the creator, but people need to move on. This is the new world. We always joke that when your product comes out, it's obsolete already. I force myself to learn new things even though I can justify why not. I am 69, but I am still decent with computers, using a smart phone. I even forced myself learning C++ programming to compete with my grandson!!! It's all about learning new things and keep up.

Older masters were the creators, we honor them. BUT it's for us to improve. Like strength, balance and injury recovery, science comes a long long way in the last 50 years. Learn from them. Look at the athletes now, they are competing at the old age that people 30 years ago cannot even imagine. It's the new way of training to keep them stronger, recover faster and last longer.

Like I know the deep horse stance is for strengthening the legs and balance, I walk with low stance like those katas with front thigh almost horizontal and back leg straight for 7 1/2 minutes non stop, no break to strength the legs, use wobble boards for balance. Use other method of strength. It is a lot more efficient.

But anyway, I should stop talking since it's very apparent nobody agree with me. To me, this is the way of life.

You’re still treating it as binary. I can use wobble boards AND have movements in kata that challenge balance. Since the kata can serve several purposes, it makes a nice addition.

 

[JowGaWolf]

No people don't understand, at least nobody told me in TKD, WC and another one I learn a little called "White Brow". This, I think you are interpreting yourself to defend the low stance.

If they didn't understand, then I believe they weren't actively trying to use what they they train in sparring against other fighting systems. As someone who has done this, I just can't see how how they could train application in that manner and still not understand. There are some universal truths that people learn through sparring. It doesn't matter which system they train. If they spar, or compete against other systems then there's no way that they can't understand. That's like knowing how to swim but not knowing how to hold your breath. Can you really swim without experiencing holding your breath?

I think you are interpreting yourself to defend the low stance.

I am defending the low stance as I have been able to use it in sparring against people who train in other systems. I'm not defending it from the perspective of "This is what my teacher has told me." I'm defending it based on the success I've had with it AND on the failures that I've had with it. Knowing the limitations of a stance is just as important as knowing how to use it.

Like I said for lower body exercise, it is a lot more efficient to do what I am doing if it's for strengthening, 7 1/2 minutes non stop deep stance walking. Try that as see whether it's more effective than relying of forms to strengthen the lower body.

You should look up Isometic Squat and Static Squat. Also look at how isometric exercises help. Here's another view.

This is will sound familiar to many martial artist who do forms that require quick up and down movements.


Here's another video you should watch. Keep in mind that a static horse stance Is an Isometric Exercise.. I hope these videos will clear some things up for you. Pretty much what I've been saying forever. We'll not forever, but through my experience of doing the horse stance.

See something familiar? This is from a video I shared a few years back. I do static and dynamic training using weights. This is me 30lbs over weight so in reality I really don't need the weights. Except for that fact that my legs are really strong, but most importantly the tendons and ligaments in my legs are thicker than most people so I'm able to withstand the dynamic movement. When I teach martial arts Step 1 = Static Horsestance . Students have to build up the tendons and ligaments first and it's going to not only take a while, but it's going to be an on going process. After 6 months of dedication then a light weight 2 - 5 pounds can be used to with dynamic movement training. This is how I train my Kung Fu. The weight in the picture is 20lbs. If a person rushes the training then they risk tearing up their ligaments, tendons, and basically blowing out their knee.

So when I defend the low stance it's because it's something that I use.

By the way, Chinese Kung Fu Forms are very demanding physically. There's nothing easy about those things.

Examples used showing the low stance used in boxing. If I'm going to "beat a dead horse" then it's going to be this one lol

 

[JowGaWolf]

Try that as compare with doing forms and see which one is more effective in strengthening the legs and balance.

Forms. In forms you'll go through more ranges of movement and some forms include jumps and one leg stances. Don't think of training as a singular thing where a person does "Either this or that, but not both." Include it all in your training.

If you don't want to do forms then create a shadow boxing routine, that is made of the techniques of the striking that you want to do.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I am old and not very in shape, maybe someone here can try to do the walk and see whether it's hard. It's hard for me. I started out only able to do like 4mins, I work up to 7 1/2 minutes. I am NOT going to increase the time. If it ever gets easier, I'll wear iron weights to make it more difficult and keep the 7 1/2minutes. Time I don't have, I cannot afford to waste time. I just finished 1/2 hr of grip and forearm exercise, so I am doing cool down on the keyboard!!!

Age doesn't have anything to do with it, it's difficult for everyone. I can say this with certainty as I've taught young and old and it's just difficult period. I keep all of my training movement to 1 minute rounds. When it gets easy at 1 minute then I have the option to:
1. Increase the intensity = move faster
2. Add weight = move at the same normal speed or at a slower, but only for 1 minute. That 1 minutes helps me to manage my joint wear and besides most people can't last beyond a minute in a fight. Most people get tired at 30 seconds, so if I can get a good intensity for a minute without being gassed then I'm much better off than the person who can barely breath after 30 seconds.
3. Take shorter breaks between rounds. My normal break is for 16 seconds. If it gets easier then I can cut that break into 8 seconds

The most important thing no matter the age is footwork. It becomes even more important as we get older. We have already seen "kung fu masters" with very bad footwork stumble everywhere. Slow footwork is better than no foot work.

My kung fu learning experience is often like this. My eyes know what they see, but my brain can't figure it out. Trying to get the brain to get the body to do what the eyes see.

Fun Fact.
Those small short steps that Tyson is doing are the same thing that Jow Ga teaches. Either when going forward or backwards the steps are always short. I only need to move out of the range of a strike or take down. If I move back too far too fast then my opponent will chase me. I don't want my opponent to chase me when I'm moving backwards because he will always be faster moving forward than I am moving backwards. By keeping the steps short, I won't trigger that chase. I also don't want to move forward too fast because that will trigger a "flee reaction" I don't want my opponent to flee. I want to alert him to my forward movement. The short movement in Jow Ga are known as rat movements or characteristics of rats because of the short quick steps.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Why do you think that I care to discuss about something that I don't train?

You have just forced to to prove that I do train WC.

ha ha ha.. How long have you been waiting to show that video. But seriously, when it comes to Martial Arts I tend to accept what people say and try to be careful of saying who trains what and who doesn't. I'm pretty neutral until conversation or video validates or invalidates.

it confirmed what I have thought all along: the Forms we learn are basically a dance of what we are learning;

Only in some systems. The one I train are actual fighting combos mixed with some conditioning. The beginning form that I learned in Jow Ga are all applicable striking and grappling techniques. There are forms that have conditioning and breathing exercises, and even performance stuff, but that's a small part of the entire form.

the slower forms are simply a combination of what we are learning, but slowed down and made more graceful. Very pretty style. Adds emphasis to the ART of Martial Arts.

Moving slowly requires a different coordination skill. I recently taught my brother a shuffle jab the way that it's done in kung fu (not saying other systems don't do it, but it wasn't taught in his Muay Thai gym). When he did the movement quickly it looked like he landed the punch when his foot landed. I made him go half speed and I could see that coordination break down. His foot would land first and then he would punch. As a result the punch didn't land on the pad with the weight of his body. There's a big power difference. I gave him an example and he was shocked at the difference. My jabs knocked him backwards (he was holding a kicking shield). His punches felt like taps but didn't have the force to move me backwards.

If you want to see flaws in your movement then slow things down and you'll see things that you didn't realize you were doing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So are you a taiji and wing Chun guy right now, today, or is that something in the distant past?

I still train Taiji form so I won't forget it. I like Taiji concept the end of the current move is the beginning of the next move. I did integrate that principle into my long fist training.

I use WC centerline principle to develope my "rhino guard" and "Chinese zombie guard" principles.

I did try to integrate WC into long fist but I found it's impossible. May be others can do that integration task. It's just too hard for me.

Can you see the WC centerline principle used in these clips? Both of my primary arts long fist and Chinese wrestling have no such centerline strategy.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You’re still treating it as binary

yes this. It's either On or Off. It can never be both. This becomes problematic in martial arts when things are often both and at the same time.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But seriously, when it comes to Martial Arts I tend to accept what people say and try to be careful of saying who trains what and who doesn't. I'm pretty neutral until conversation or video validates or invalidates.

I also don't like to challenge people's MA training experience. I like to discuss the subject. I don't like to involve YOU or I in the discussion.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I did try to integrate WC into long fist but I found it's impossible. May be others can do that integration task. It's just too hard for me.

You mean circular and linear at the same time? If so. Circular punch followed by linear kick. Circular sweep followed by linear punch.
Maybe this will help? Now Wing Chun, but we have linear and circular components.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I also don't like to challenge people's MA training experience. I like to discuss the subject. I don't like to involve YOU or I in the discussion.

yeah. That's the safe way to be. It prevents awkward situations lol.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

yeah. That's the safe way to be. It prevents awkward situations lol.

Many years ago, we have our "snake engine" WC guy who liked to say, "You don't know ..." I told him that was not the proper way for online discussion.

"Disagree" is not the same as "don't know".

 

[Alan0354]

If they didn't understand, then I believe they weren't actively trying to use what they they train in sparring against other fighting systems. As someone who has done this, I just can't see how how they could train application in that manner and still not understand. There are some universal truths that people learn through sparring. It doesn't matter which system they train. If they spar, or compete against other systems then there's no way that they can't understand. That's like knowing how to swim but not knowing how to hold your breath. Can you really swim without experiencing holding your breath?


I am defending the low stance as I have been able to use it in sparring against people who train in other systems. I'm not defending it from the perspective of "This is what my teacher has told me." I'm defending it based on the success I've had with it AND on the failures that I've had with it. Knowing the limitations of a stance is just as important as knowing how to use it.


You should look up Isometic Squat and Static Squat. Also look at how isometric exercises help. Here's another view.

This is will sound familiar to many martial artist who do forms that require quick up and down movements.


Here's another video you should watch. Keep in mind that a static horse stance Is an Isometric Exercise.. I hope these videos will clear some things up for you. Pretty much what I've been saying forever. We'll not forever, but through my experience of doing the horse stance.

See something familiar? This is from a video I shared a few years back. I do static and dynamic training using weights. This is me 30lbs over weight so in reality I really don't need the weights. Except for that fact that my legs are really strong, but most importantly the tendons and ligaments in my legs are thicker than most people so I'm able to withstand the dynamic movement. When I teach martial arts Step 1 = Static Horsestance . Students have to build up the tendons and ligaments first and it's going to not only take a while, but it's going to be an on going process. After 6 months of dedication then a light weight 2 - 5 pounds can be used to with dynamic movement training. This is how I train my Kung Fu. The weight in the picture is 20lbs. If a person rushes the training then they risk tearing up their ligaments, tendons, and basically blowing out their knee.
View attachment 28624

So when I defend the low stance it's because it's something that I use.
View attachment 28625

View attachment 28626

By the way, Chinese Kung Fu Forms are very demanding physically. There's nothing easy about those things.

Examples used showing the low stance used in boxing. If I'm going to "beat a dead horse" then it's going to be this one lol

I really like the isometric exercise. I am really not interested in talking about forms, we said what we said already.

Actually that's what I've been experimenting on this and I see improvement on strength of my bicep and actually get slightly bigger.

Since the pandemic, I have been doing weights at home. I don't have a bench and all the weights, so I have been improvising like wearing 75lbs jacket to do pushup and have a lot of elastic bands for doing pull down, and all that. About 2 months ago, I thought about using elastic band to do bicep curl like shown in the picture:

I put enough elastic bands and curl up until I cannot pull any further and hold for 8 sec. before releasing. I do 10reps on each arm. I do minimum resting, just alternative arms. You can see I have 2 blue and 1 yellow. The first set is easy. The second set is harder. I took off the yellow band for the 3rd and 4th set. The whole thing last 11minutes. This REALLY REALLY BURNS. I do this 2 times a week, then I do regular bicep curl with 40lbs dumbbell once a week. I notice it's getting easier on the dumbbells lately. Before the form got bad on the 3rd and 4th sets after like 6 reps, now it's better.

I think this is kind of like what you described. Ha ha, this is one of the thing I came up with lying in bed in the morning to try a new way as experiment. This paid off.

Now, you make me thinking about using this method to do chest as I already using it for bench press exercise.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08R33NSK4?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1

I can just try push until I cannot go any further, then hold for 8 sec and do reps.


I use elastic bands to do pull down, maybe I can do that also. It's funny I was forced to workout at home due to the shutdown, but I adapted so well that I don't even care to go back to the gym now that they are open. Only thing I missed is the JAW exercise. I have groups of friends there, never a quiet moment. But it took up too much time.


Thanks so much, you seems to always trigger good ideas for me. Of cause I have strong opinion. But I do think before I reject anything. Always search for better and more efficient ways that get better results.

I think elastic bands is even better than weights, you always can push to the limit, but if you release, it gets lighter. It is a lot safer than using real weight because if you push real weight and you cannot hold any more, it can drop on you. Here, there's nothing drops on you. When you are tired and get weaker, you just cannot stretch the band as much. As you get weaker, the band pull lighter, so you ALWAYS maintain the peak contraction.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You mean circular and linear at the same time?

In the following 2 clips, if you are used to do 1, you will never go back to do 2. After you have developed body method, you don't want to lost it.

1. Body push arm (This clip has body method).

2. Freeze the body and only move the arm (This clip has no body method).

 

[isshinryuronin]

I am defending the low stance as I have been able to use it in sparring against people who train in other systems. I'm not defending it from the perspective of "This is what my teacher has told me." I'm defending it based on the success I've had with it AND on the failures that I've had with it. Knowing the limitations of a stance is just as important as knowing how to use it.

As I posted earlier in #61, most of the benefits a low stance provides, especially in forms, are related to grappling. But I do not rule out their limited use in sparring. Since it's relatively rare to see in karate sparring, it can give the opponent pause as to what the heck you are doing. I have adopted such a stance on occasion to cause some momentary confusion to take advantage of, but I would not remain in it for more than a few seconds, especially against a skilled opponent or one used to it. There is much wisdom in your last sentence.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you want to see flaws in your movement then slow things down and you'll see things that you didn't realize you were doing.

Agree with you 100% there.

If you want to develop the coordinate between your

- hand and foot, you may have to slow down to 1/2 speed.
- elbow and knee, you may have to slow down to 1/3 s[eed.
- shoulder and hip, you may have to slow down even more.

In regular speed training, it's very difficult to achieve this.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Since it's relatively rare to see in karate sparring, it can give the opponent pause as to what the heck you are doing. I have adopted such a stance on occasion to cause some momentary confusion to take advantage of,

This is what I like to see. It's strange because it really does mess up your opponent's flow. They literally pause because they don't know how to proceed. Only someone who uses a low stance would know that it causes confusion. Those who don't use it won't understand it. It's one of those things that you have to do to truly see how it affects one's opponent.

 

[Yanli]

If we accept that traditional forms (by this I mean those developed prior to mass public instruction and developed for the most part prior to 1920 and sport karate) were developed by combat professionals to encapsulate their fighting style, it follows that the forms tell us something of the techniques the originating master thought significant and worthy enough to be included and passed on.

It may be equally telling to note what techniques were NOT included in the forms, even though commonly practiced today in many schools.

Most Okinawan styles' forms share a lack of a number of these "common" moves, mostly kicks. Using my style as a representative example, I note that our combined list of seven inherited traditional forms lack the following:

NO roundhouse kicks, back kicks, spinning kicks or high kicks! Just ONE crescent kick. Just TWO side kicks (one to each side,) and just two jump kicks. There are also several notable hand techniques missing or rarely present.

I see two or three main explanations. One, these techniques were not deemed combat-effective enough, or posed too much risk (vulnerabilities or balance), to be included in the forms. Two, they were part of the curriculum but were not memorialized in forms, taught more informally on a personal basis. And, thirdly, perhaps the intention was to just keep the system as simple and stripped down as possible. Afterall, it's not the quantity of moves, but the quality of the moves and their tactical implementation that's paramount. Maybe there are elements of all these reasons.

Many of these "missing" moves are quite useful in modern sport competition and for physical exercise. But looking at the original combat function of early karate and its forms, and its relevance to self-defense nowadays, are these missing moves really missed?

As far as kicks that are no longer done and other moves, you are right that some can leave vulnerability, but there is also a major problem that all schools have to contend with, and that what people are willing to pay to learn. I run into many students that are not willing to go to the full extent of learning, and the needed hard training. Most people that I have dealt with just want to learn just enough to where they feel they can fight, and they can call themselves a martial artist.

 

[Yanli]

This is what I like to see. It's strange because it really does mess up your opponent's flow. They literally pause because they don't know how to proceed. Only someone who uses a low stance would know that it causes confusion. Those who don't use it won't understand it. It's one of those things that you have to do to truly see how it affects one's opponent.

To the confusion there is also that fact that any approach to that person leaves the attacker's lower half vulnerable. Most people are use to a fight being face-to-face, and with your arms up in a fighting position.