"Common" Moves Not Found in Forms

[isshinryuronin]

The low horse stance that you are talking about is used for grappling. I pretty much beat that into the dirt 24/7 and at every opportunity I get. I would tell this to anyone and have (and accidentally offended a sifu in the process). But I stand by what I've been able to do when using it during sparring and how that same concept of a low stance is used in other grappling arts. The only different between striking low stance and grappling low stance, is that I'm striking from the low stance.

The low horse stance is the only low stance that I know that allows me to punch, kick, and grapple from. But it's burns up leg energy like crazy and it's less mobile than higher stances. So with those downsides, it will allow you effectively deal with grappling

I certainly agree with you that low horse (or other low stance) is best suited for grappling type moves due to its stability and low center of gravity. As for a base for striking or blocking? Dropping your body weight can add power in certain strikes (Ed Parker termed this "marriage of gravity").

Karate forms seem to have some blocks and strikes that utilize a low stance, but many times this is a case of a block not being a block and a strike not being a strike. For example, the low X block is usually done in a low stance, but is actually, having grabbed the opponent, the act of throwing him down. And a punch that is done from a low stance can sometimes represent an arm break, while the passive hand anchors the wrist. Or, the punch is actually a punch executed while pulling the opponent in with the other hand.

So even though a form may appear to have strikes and blocks done from a low stance, some sort of grappling is usually being applied. This is common in Okinawan karate, but I suspect sometimes true in CMA and other MA as well. I'll leave it to practitioners of other arts to analyze their own forms and see if this kind of application may be valid.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But it's a lot more important to practice important stuffs in class as you can pair them up and go through drills, one or two step sparring. You don't need partners for forms.

No, but to get benefit from them, they have to happen regularly in class until students can carry on on their own. If the students don’t practice it outside class, that takes a long time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yet, I maybe just in entry level that cannot appreciate what encapsulated in the form. I just look at what works in the fighting competitions like UFC, Bellator etc. For beginners and ignorant people, we look for who's butt is being kicked and who's kicking butt. We really don't understand all the deeper stuff as we just bare stepped off the curb.

Maybe it more advanced philosophic level, winning is losing, or losing is winning. There's a deeper lesson to learn.

It doesn’t have to get all paradoxical and faux-deep. Different people have different priorities. Not everyone is looking to maximize their combat ability, as their primary priority in life (which elite fighters likely are).

 

[JowGaWolf]

You agree nobody punch like in the last picture, why forms have so many of that?

Everyone who trains kung fu and practices application will tells you this. That type of horse stance is for strengthening ligaments, tendons, and muscle. In the form the practitioner is conditioning the legs unless it's part of an actual technique. If it's part of a fighting technique, then you have to determine how low the stance should be, based on the height of your opponent. This mean that the stance will vary in application.

 

[Star Dragon]

This is why besides the traditional forms, it's a good idea to create a set of "universal" toolbox forms such as:

1. punching form - jab, cross, hook, uppercut, overhand, hammer fist, ...
2. kicking form - front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, crescent kick, ...
3. locking form - wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, head lock, spine lock, ...
4. throwing form - hip throw, leg twist, leg block, foot sweep, single leg, ...
5. ground game form - arm bar, leg bar, neck choke, side mount, missionary mount, ...
6. footwork form - forward, backward, circle, forward jump, backward jump, ...
7. ...

In keeping with that, in Kenpo, besides forms, we have what we call sets.

However, not only are the forms more mobile than the sets, they teach versatility too, as they include combinations of blocks, strikes, kicks, what-have-you, along with various transitions and foot maneuvers. In other words, they examplify actual applications of the basic moves, even if still in a more or less stylized fashion.

That being said, there's no sharp line separating forms from sets. For instance, a sequence of movements from a set can sometimes be translated into a fighting application as well. But forms and sets differ in emphasis and purpose, overall.

 

[Alan0354]

Everyone who trains kung fu and practices application will tells you this. That type of horse stance is for strengthening ligaments, tendons, and muscle. In the form the practitioner is conditioning the legs unless it's part of an actual technique. If it's part of a fighting technique, then you have to determine how low the stance should be, based on the height of your opponent. This mean that the stance will vary in application.

No people don't understand, at least nobody told me in TKD, WC and another one I learn a little called "White Brow". This, I think you are interpreting yourself to defend the low stance. In fact, in my class, we do everything standing up because we want to move in and out faster. Like I said for lower body exercise, it is a lot more efficient to do what I am doing if it's for strengthening, 7 1/2 minutes non stop deep stance walking. Try that as see whether it's more effective than relying of forms to strengthen the lower body.

I tend to look at things in face value, the form stays low and punch, I take that you want me to go low to punch. I do NOT try to defend them by second guess the meaning. This is fighting, not philosophy, this is art of kicking butt. You want me to stay high when doing the punch, make the form stay high. You want to prepare for grappling, do the motion for grappling. DO NOT stay low and punch and tell me there is another meaning to it.

You want to strengthen ligaments on the knee and all, do strengthening exercise like what i am doing. Maybe they did not know better in the older days, but we know better. I might NOT know MA that deep, BUT I know strengthening and injury recovery exercise learn from modern medicine.

 

[Star Dragon]

Agree with you 100% there.

If the WC founder was taken down by "double legs", we may not seen the WC stance like this today that both knees are so close together.

View attachment 28606

Bear in mind that every stance - in fact, every technique - has both its strengths and weaknesses.

More likely then, the founder would have thought of a way to ward off a double-leg takedown, and this could be found somewhere in the WC system now.

Comes to mind, it wouldn't be surprising if such a defence was actually there, hidden in one of the forms, despite not even being intended as such originally... 🤔

For good forms and their components, respectively, are broad in application! Which is an aspect worth emphasizing: Forms never contain just a single way of putting them to use, but a plenitude of ways, codified in each of their parts, for you to uncover.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But forms and sets differ in emphasis and purpose, overall.

Besides the tookbox construction, the set can be the next step that record principle, strategy, combo, ...

For example, a set can have:

- groin kick, face punch (use kick to set up punch).
- side kick, spin back fist.
- hook punch, back fist (use punch to set up another punch).
- roundhouse kick, side kick (use kick to set up another kick),
- shouldlock, elbow lock (use lock to set up another lock).
- single leg, foot sweep (attack one leg then attack another leg).
- ...

 

[Alan0354]

Besides the tookbox construction, the set can be the next step that record principle, strategy, combo, ...

For example, a set can have:

- groin kick, face punch (use kick to set up punch).
- side kick, spin back fist.
- hook punch, back fist (use punch to set up another punch).
- roundhouse kick, side kick (use kick to set up another kick),
- shouldlock, elbow lock (use lock to set up another lock).
- single leg, foot sweep (attack one leg then attack another leg).
- ...

What is a "set"? Never heard that before.

Is is something like what I called one step or two steps sparring where you do combination of kicks and punches like you described here?

This, is USEFUL. I agree 100%. This is what I spend the most time.

This is all I've been talking about, doing this instead of forms. I am a simple person, I don't get into the "imply" use of the movement. I take it as face value, you squat low and punch, I take it as you want me to punch with low stance. At least if you want me to do take down with low stance, move you hands in like taking people down so at least I would stop and question. Don't give me the bull that squat down and punch has a double meaning of taking down.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What is a "set"? Never heard that before.

I may call that "principle/strategy box (or grammar book)" instead.

Some principles/strategies used in the wrestling art are:

1. Get both legs if you can. Otherwise get one leg first, and then get the other leg afterward.
2. Apply throw into one direction, when your opponent resists, borrow his resisting force, throw him into the opposite direction.
3. Use straight line throw, when your opponent resists, change into circular throw.
4. Use circular throw, when your opponent resists, change into straight line throw.
5. If your opponent want to do X, help him to do more X than he really want to.
6. If you are right hand person, attack with your left hand first. Make your opponent to think that you are a left hand person.
7. It's better to be inside than to be outside.
8. It's better to be on the top than to be on the bottom.
9. Move from wrist gate -> elbow gate -> shoulder/head gate.
10. Control your opponent's head. His body will follow.
11. Try to let your opponent to sit on your upper leg as a bench.
12. Drag your opponent in circle. Force him to shift weight from one leg to another leg.
13. Try to achieve you have 1 grip on your opponent but he has no grip on you. When he tries to get grip on you, you move in and throw him.
14. If you want to push, you pull first. If you want to pull, you push first.
15. Don't let your opponent's arm to wrap around your waist. When he does that, crack his elbow joint.
16. Don't let your opponent to stay in horse stance. When he does that, spring his leg and force him into bow-arrow stance.
17. Move yourself out of your opponent's moving path, and give him plenty of space to fall.
18. You want to take over your opponent's position. You want your opponent to take over your position.
19. Use momentum to run your opponent down.
20. Never cross your legs in front of your opponent.
21. ...

 

[Alan0354]

Ha ha, too many to even try to remember. Are you making it up as you go?!! )

One thing stood out is #20. I can swear I saw leg crossing in some form before. I always wonder you really want to do that!!!

BTW, I saw you post about WC stance, I learn some WC before, they seem to impose a lot of restrictions upon themselves. Like all hands come out on center line, it is as if they can do all the moves with a hoop around both elbows. Why? Why restrict themselves? WC stance truly cannot move fast, when they move, it's like step-drag-step-drag with the two knees close together. They are going to have a hell of a time chasing a boxer. And then the sticky hands. They really think they can trap the person's hands!!!? I do like their front step kick to the knee and the way they nudge the punch to produce more power.

 

[isshinryuronin]

forms and sets differ in emphasis and purpose, overall.

What is a "set"? Never heard that before

My understanding (47 years ago) of Kenpo "sets" is that they're basically a very short form, but more specialized in purpose. "Hand Set" is done, sometimes stationary, and consists completely of open hand strikes; fingers to eyes and throat, and palm heels to other parts of the body. "Dance of Death" is strictly foot attacks against a downed opponent; stomps and kicks as you jump around and atop his body. Star Dragon is correct that forms are more mobile and versatile, sets being more focused on a specific type of technique and more like a long drill sequence.*

*(There may be a more current meaning as my Kenpo experience was a long time ago and various versions and lineages have evolved since then.)

Don't give me the bull that squat down and punch has a double meaning of taking down.

The earth being round was also thought to be bull. I hear there are still some who think it's flat. (I deleted the rest of this response as it would be wasted on deaf ears, and although quite clever, would not be looked upon favorably by our esteemed and respected moderators.)

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I can swear I saw leg crossing in some form before. I always wonder you really want to do that!!!

BTW, I saw you post about WC stance,

I believe the WC stance is designed to be used on the boat.

When you are in your opponent's kicking range, to cross your legs will give your opponent a chance to sweep you.

 

[Alan0354]

The earth being round was also thought to be bull. I hear there are still some who think it's flat. (I deleted the rest of this response as it would be wasted on deaf ears, and although quite clever, would not be looked upon favorably by our esteemed and respected moderators.)

Yeh, I just got off the curb, I don't understand the deeper meaning that advanced people understand. Like I said, I only look at superficial stuffs like who's butt being kicked and who's kicking.

 

[Alan0354]

I believe the WC stance is designed to be used on the boat.

When you are in your opponent's kicking range, to cross your legs will give your opponent a chance to sweep you.

I have no idea, there are so many hearsay BS that I heard in the kung fu community I don't know what is true and what's not. I learn not to take them seriously.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yeh, I just got off the curb, I don't understand the deeper meaning that advanced people understand. Like I said, I only look at superficial stuffs like who's butt being kicked and who's kicking.

In wrestling, your legs will get tired first. If you have strong legs, you have better chance to win in a wrestling match.

The horse stance training can make your legs strong.

 

[Alan0354]

In wrestling, your legs will get tired first. If you have strong legs, you have better chance to win in a wrestling match.

The horse stance training can make your legs strong.

Yes, I totally agree. I just explained in post #66 above that twice a week, I do deep stance walk continuously for 7 1/2 minutes. Just like those karate deep stand one leg forward with thigh almost 90deg horizontal to the ground, the back leg straight. I just walk around the house non stop for 7 1/2 minutes. I only spend 15minutes total a week. Try that as compare with doing forms and see which one is more effective in strengthening the legs and balance.

I put that in weight training routine which is totally separate. I believe in maximizing the effect with the shortest amount of time. I don't believe in punching and kicking in low stance, so I practice a lot of you called "sets" on combination of kicks and punches standing normal, elbows and knees. I do the same thing on heavy bags. then I strengthen my legs with horse stance walking and squat. I carry 150lbs to do squats, I also do dead lifts for the back.

I truly believe in strength training. I spend half of the exercise time on weight and half on MA.

I am old and not very in shape, maybe someone here can try to do the walk and see whether it's hard. It's hard for me. I started out only able to do like 4mins, I work up to 7 1/2 minutes. I am NOT going to increase the time. If it ever gets easier, I'll wear iron weights to make it more difficult and keep the 7 1/2minutes. Time I don't have, I cannot afford to waste time. I just finished 1/2 hr of grip and forearm exercise, so I am doing cool down on the keyboard!!!

 

[wab25]

In Taekwondo, many of the "verses" in a form end on a block. For example, in Taegeuk 2, steps 5 and 6 are inside blocks, with no strikes in that section, and then 11-14 are two high blocks, turn and inside block, turn and inside block. Many of the Taekwondo forms were inspired by taking Karate forms and rearranging them, which causes you to lose the original arrangement.

The pattern of 2 high blocks (actually 3 high blocks) is found in Shotokan. The founder of the art, Funakoshi, explained that these high block series are actually elbow breaks and shoulder locks. Interestingly, General Choi was a student of Funakoshi, got his black belt in Shotokan from Funakoshi and opened his own Shotokan school in Japan under Funakoshi. So he would have been taught by Funakoshi, that these high blocks have grappling applications. In rearranging the Karate Kata, TKD has decided to keep the multiple high blocks... My guess is that someone understood what they had been taught and found it valuable enough to keep. (I also suspect, that they elaborated on and iterated on what they had learned... and perhaps even added to the body of knowledge in their rearrangement.... I don't believe that they put the moves in a chart and threw dice to figure out what came next)

Funakoshi also taught that their were a lot of throws within the Shotokan Kata, which should be found and practiced. (paraphrasing Funakoshi there) Again, General Choi would have been taught these. (General Choi was not the only TKD founder who personally trained under Funakoshi... others trained with Funakoshi's Sensei....) Interestingly, many of the "blocking" movements and turning movements are where the throws are in the kata.

As previously mentioned... every block is also a strike. But I will add to that... every block is also a joint destruction, an off balancing, part of a throw.... as well as a strike.

Then there's just the way they're performed. You wouldn't stand in the stances. You wouldn't go at the pace in the forms. You would actually use a guard.

Well, you are right here... you will never see a fight where a form is done, exactly as taught, to win the fight. They must be useless....

They teach stances, to teach you principles. One would be how to root. They teach you to move in a unified manner and how to connect the movement of your body to your attack. Yes, there are lots of ways to teach this... hence, lots of different forms / kata and styles of teaching that have neither kata or forms. There are a lot of things in kata / forms to learn besides the techniques. There are a lot of things to practice in the kata / forms that can make your practice very efficient. Yes, you can ignore the forms and practice punching. Then you can practice throwing. Then you can practice joint locks. In Kata / forms you can practice all three (and more) at the same time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No people don't understand, at least nobody told me in TKD, WC and another one I learn a little called "White Brow". This, I think you are interpreting yourself to defend the low stance. In fact, in my class, we do everything standing up because we want to move in and out faster. Like I said for lower body exercise, it is a lot more efficient to do what I am doing if it's for strengthening, 7 1/2 minutes non stop deep stance walking. Try that as see whether it's more effective than relying of forms to strengthen the lower body.

I tend to look at things in face value, the form stays low and punch, I take that you want me to go low to punch. I do NOT try to defend them by second guess the meaning. This is fighting, not philosophy, this is art of kicking butt. You want me to stay high when doing the punch, make the form stay high. You want to prepare for grappling, do the motion for grappling. DO NOT stay low and punch and tell me there is another meaning to it.

You want to strengthen ligaments on the knee and all, do strengthening exercise like what i am doing. Maybe they did not know better in the older days, but we know better. I might NOT know MA that deep, BUT I know strengthening and injury recovery exercise learn from modern medicine.

What works isn't a binary matter, though. I can build strength faster in my legs many ways, but that doesn't mean having moves in a form that target leg strength isn't useful.

Here's a different example of the same concept. I included some movesn in my forms that specifically challenge mobility and balance. I could develop students' balance more effectively with wobble boards and other specifically balance-oriented exercises. I could develop students' mobility better with ladders or other mobility-oriented exercises. And I can develop both of those a bit - while also developing some movement patterns that are useful within our techniques - in the forms.

For me, personally, I like to have all of those things going on. I sometimes do exercises specifically targeting each of those. And I also like the fact that all of them are possible to work on within the forms.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Bear in mind that every stance - in fact, every technique - has both its strengths and weaknesses.

More likely then, the founder would have thought of a way to ward off a double-leg takedown, and this could be found somewhere in the WC system now.

Comes to mind, it wouldn't be surprising if such a defence was actually there, hidden in one of the forms, despite not even being intended as such originally... 🤔

For good forms and their components, respectively, are broad in application! Which is an aspect worth emphasizing: Forms never contain just a single way of putting them to use, but a plenitude of ways, codified in each of their parts, for you to uncover.

I dislike the idea that something already exists "hidden within the forms". If it's hidden from current students, it's lost to the system. Trying to rediscover it within the forms is far less useful than looking for methods in use in other systems that would work within the movement patterns already in use.