Chris Dorner No Excuses

[Tgace]

http://www.policeone.com/police-heroes/articles/6122318-Police-families-cope-with-Dorners-aftermath/

Good write up by the AP.

This guy was no "whistle blower"...he was a **** up.

 

[Tgace]

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/feb/14/local/la-me-dorner-fire-20130215

Samuel Walker, emeritus professor of criminal justice at the University of Nebraska Omaha, was critical of the decision to use the "burner" tear gas canisters.

"It's true, he was firing at them. But he was cornered. He was trapped. At that point, there was no rush in the sense that he was barricaded. The standard rules on barricade situations are that you can wait the person out," Walker said. "To use a known incendiary device raises some very serious questions in my mind."

(So getting shot at doesn't mean much as long as he's barricaded? Huh?)

Other law enforcement experts interviewed by The Times, however, said the move was justified. Even though SWAT officers were certain to have known a fire was a strong possibility, the use of the gas was reasonable in the face of the deadly threat Dorner presented, they said. Allowing the standoff to carry on into the night, they emphasized, would have added an unpredictable element to the drama that officials were smart to avoid.

"What difference does it make if one of the officers puts a … round in his head, drives the armored vehicle over his body when they are knocking the building down, or he dies in a conflagration?" said David Klinger, a use-of-force expert at the University of Missouri at St. Louis and a former LAPD officer. "If he is trying to surrender you can't do any of those things … But if he is actively trying to murder people, there's no doubt that deadly force is appropriate and it doesn't matter what method is used to deliver it."

Geoffery Alpert, a professor at the University of South Carolina who also specializes in police tactics, agreed.

"I don't understand what the big deal is," Alpert said. "This man had already shot two officers and was suspected of murdering other people. He wasn't responding in a rational manner. The actions you take have to remove the threat and if it requires extreme measures, then so be it."

 

[Makalakumu]

Are the vigilantes that took Dorner out heroes?

Dorner railed against crooked cops who abused their power and hurt innocent people in his manifesto...and then he did exactly the same thing. In the end, he was killed extra-judicially, with no due process, exactly the way he killed his victims. Shall I steal a quote from Ron Paul?

"Those who live by the sword, die by the sword."

 

[ballen0351]

Dorner railed against crooked cops who abused their power and hurt innocent people in his manifesto...and then he did exactly the same thing. In the end, he was killed extra-judicially, with no due process, exactly the way he killed his victims. Shall I steal a quote from Ron Paul?

"Those who live by the sword, die by the sword."

He wasn't fighting against crooked cops he was one. He lied under oath and got fired. Same thing just happened at my department 2 weeks ago. 2 cops got caught in a lie and requested a trial board got found guilty and are being fired. I for one am glad off it. They were crappy cops to begin with they should have been fired years ago but its hard to get rid of cops.
Dorner was a liar a coward and a murderer. Good riddance

 

[crushing]

Dorner railed against crooked cops who abused their power and hurt innocent people in his manifesto...and then he did exactly the same thing. In the end, he was killed extra-judicially, with no due process, exactly the way he killed his victims. Shall I steal a quote from Ron Paul?

"Those who live by the sword, die by the sword."

Another quote is about an "eye for an eye." This culture of retribution may be one of the reasons people are so accepting of violence. It would probably be more worthwhile to look in to what moves people to such violent behavior than to restrict a certain subset of instruments or objects that may be used by (or against) violent people.

 

[Tgace]

Dorner railed against crooked cops who abused their power and hurt innocent people in his manifesto...and then he did exactly the same thing. In the end, he was killed extra-judicially, with no due process, exactly the way he killed his victims. Shall I steal a quote from Ron Paul?

"Those who live by the sword, die by the sword."

When you are shooting at cops and they kill you how is that a due process violation?

 

[MJS]

http://lawenforcementtoday.com/2013/02/14/chris-dorner-no-excuses/





Amen...

People think he did this to show that the LAPD is corrupt. Corrupt or not, it was Dorner who accused his partner of doing something, that I dont believe he did, and was in fact made up. I agree with Seaoned...this guy was a dirtbag.

 

[MJS]

Dorner railed against crooked cops who abused their power and hurt innocent people in his manifesto...and then he did exactly the same thing. In the end, he was killed extra-judicially, with no due process, exactly the way he killed his victims. Shall I steal a quote from Ron Paul?

"Those who live by the sword, die by the sword."

IMO, if he was trying to fix corruption in the LAPD, then his methods of doing are, well...frankly, they're pretty ****ed up! Just like he was!

Are the vigilantes that took Dorner out heroes?

You think the cops were vigilantes?

 

[crushing]

You think the cops were vigilantes?

Only if they had the option to bring him to justice without putting themselves in danger. Nobody will miss a ****ed up dirtbag, so will anyone really care about due process in this case?

 

[Makalakumu]

When you are shooting at cops and they kill you how is that a due process violation?

I don't think Dorner was going to make it out of that cabin alive, no matter what happened.

 

[Makalakumu]

IMO, if he was trying to fix corruption in the LAPD, then his methods of doing are, well...frankly, they're pretty ****ed up! Just like he was!

That's all I was saying above. If Dorner was really concerned about corruption, there were lots of better ways to handle this. In the end, he became just as bad as what he accused the LAPD of doing.

That said, I would be very wary of excusing the LAPD of corruption. I think the only reason he has attained any notoriety is the fact that the fact that the LAPD IS so openly corrupt and everyone knows it. Dorner's manifesto struck a nerve with that community...

 

[Tgace]

I don't think Dorner was going to make it out of that cabin alive, no matter what happened.

Your "think" and a nickel will get you.....

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[Makalakumu]

Your "think" and a nickel will get you.....

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Sorry, tgace, I'm a little dense this afternoon.

Let's put it this way, what is the difference between what happened to Dorner and the President assassinating American citizens he believes are a threat? Both reach into a gray area of the law where I think self defense can be argued. For civil libertarians, I can see how this precedent is troubling.

 

[ballen0351]

Sorry, tgace, I'm a little dense this afternoon.

Let's put it this way, what is the difference between what happened to Dorner and the President assassinating American citizens he believes are a threat? Both reach into a gray area of the law where I think self defense can be argued. For civil libertarians, I can see how this precedent is troubling.

Nobody killed Dorner he killed himself. Had he walked out hands up he would still be alive.

 

[Tgace]

Nobody killed Dorner he killed himself. Had he walked out hands up he would still be alive.

I think some people have seen too many cop TV shows and movies.

When you have multiple agencies involved in a large event like this you actually have less of a chance of covering things up.

 

[Makalakumu]

Nobody killed Dorner he killed himself. Had he walked out hands up he would still be alive.

I'm not so sure. I think Dorner was going to become a bullet sponge no matter what. Also, when they fired the building, no one knew if he was dead or alive. On the leaked police scanner audio, it certainly sounded like the cops thought he was alive.

 

[Makalakumu]

I think some people have seen too many cop TV shows and movies.

When you have multiple agencies involved in a large event like this you actually have less of a chance of covering things up.

Maybe this might have been true a few decades ago, but things have change...

http://www.infowars.com/did-police-order-media-blackout-to-cover-up-plan-to-kill-dorner/

Audio which indicates police involved in the siege against Christopher Dorner deliberately planned to set fire to the fugitive’s cabin was preceded by an attempt by authorities to impose a media blackout in an apparent effort to cover up the chain of events that led to Dorner’s death.​

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As the standoff reached its height, Big Bear-area police scanners were disabled online in order to “ensure officer safety.” However, the feeds were not cut until after police were clearly heard discussing plans to “go ahead with the plan with the burners,” while on another audio feed from a local news broadcast, cops were heard shouting, “burn this motherf***er.”​

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They were going to kill him no matter what.

At around the same time, CNN’s Wolf Blitzer announced that police had asked news networks not to film live footage of the scene.

Earlier in the day, the the LAPD issued a request to media outlets to “please stop tweeting” about unfolding events.​

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This was followed by a tweet, subsequently deleted, from the San Bernardino District Attorney which stated, “The sheriff has asked all members of the press to stop tweeting immediately. It is hindering officer safety.”​

The cops clearly were pressuring the press.

Reports that Dorner was ” pushed back inside” the cabin when he attempted to leave also point to this conclusion. Why not just shoot him if he failed to surrender? Why push him back inside the building and prolong the standoff?

It looks to me like they were just going to kill the guy. Some people will probably have no problem with this and I honestly understand their point of view. Dorner was a rabid dog who murdered innocent people and was clearly dangerous. That said, could this be just another example of the precedent that allows the government to kill it's citizens with no due process? What's the difference between the government killing Dorner with no due process and the government killing Anwar Al Alaki? A big difference for me is that Dorner was clearly a physical threat. Al Alaki's speech was the threat that the government killed him for. In the end, I'm not going to lose that much sleep over it. It's just troubling...​

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[Tgace]

Without knowing what the tactical situation was all you have is an infowars article and a predisposition to believe anything to do with conspiracy.

When you have a killer (very recently reproven) barricaded, shooting at you...you are there to solve the tactical problem. They called for him to surrender. He refused. They "cold gassed" him...nothing. They breached the structure and received fire. They hot gassed the structure ("burners"...they burn the agent for higher volume dispersion) and apparently Dorner decided to plug himself vs surrender.

Any assumption that they were going to kill Dorner vs let him surrender is evidence of people making unsubstantiated assumptions based on what they watched on "The Shield" or some other media based education.

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[Tgace]

Your assumption that "pushed back inside" means he was refused surrender only supports my point.

If I'm on a perimiter and the BG is trying to escape out the back I'm sure as hell gonna "push him back inside" vs let him escape. Escape is not surrender.

Seeing "pushed back" as meaning an intent to kill is like an ink blot test. You see one thing..i see another. Thing is...i have actually been on SWAT operations.

Doesn't mean im correct...i wasn't there. But im not jumping to conclusions.

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[Carol]

The story that he was push back inside was not reported at the incident command post and came after the events were over...well after the ICP reported the sound of the single gunshot coming from inside the cabin.

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