Chinese zombie guard

[Kung Fu Wang]

I find a video that a short guy uses the Chinese zombie guard (stiff arms guard) against a taller striker. It proves that you don't need long arms to make this strategy work.

It's easy to see that how you can use it to achieve a quick clinch. If your opponent

- punches you, you move in.
- don't punch you, you still move in.

What's your opinion on this strategy?

 

[Jared Traveler]

As someone training Muay Thai in Thailand, I can tell you that the long guard (both one and two hand versions) and is a major part of a Muay Thai practitioners defense.

Partly because of the danger of elbows being thrown in competition makes the traditional covering up used in boxing less useful. I also have traveled to Burma, and had some training in Lethiwe, head butts are similar. Strangely the close range weapons like elbows and headbutts require a longer defense.

If you want to explore how to use the long guard and all of its variations effectively, I would suggest Muay Thai. What the Thai's do very well is transition between ranges while defending and trapping.

 

[Jared Traveler]

Also consider the one handed use of the long guard used in boxing.

 

[Alan0354]

This is NOT UFC, different standard all together. I saw a fight in UFC long time ago a guy kind of sticking his hands out(similar to White Brow) with elbows a little closed with face exposed. Did he got knocked out. I remember Joe Rogan commented "Wow, look at him, he exposed his head, he'll be knocked out!!". Sure enough the guy went down.

With that, his head is wide open, just use boxing jab and cross in between the two zombie arms and punch to the head.

I don't even like to talk like this, like you do this, and I'd do that, this kind of talking fight. BUT the head is so WIDE OPEN, asking to " Hit me!!". I wish I can find that video, it's like 10 years or more ago.

Have the balls, try in REAL UFC.

BTW, what Tai Chi? Looks MMA to me. You mean finally they start to be more humble and learn instead of talking trash?

 

[Jared Traveler]

More specifically to your two handed version:

I think if you are going to use the long guard, understand both on and two handed versions is important.

 

[Jared Traveler]

This is NOT UFC, different standard all together. I saw a fight in UFC long time ago a guy kind of sticking his hands out(similar to White Brow) with elbows a little closed with face exposed. Did he got knocked out. I remember Joe Rogan commented "Wow, look at him, he exposed his head, he'll be knocked out!!". Sure enough the guy went down.

With that, his head is wide open, just use boxing jab and cross in between the two zombie arms and punch to the head.

I don't even like to talk like this, like you do this, and I'd do that, this kind of talking fight. BUT the head is so WIDE OPEN, asking to " Hit me!!". I wish I can find that video, it's like 10 years or more ago.

Have the balls, try in REAL UFC.

BTW, what Tai Chi? Looks MMA to me. You mean finally they start to be more humble and learn instead of talking trash?

Respectfully it's not as simple as just jabbing between the arms. Naturally that's an expected counter, and there are counters to the counter. Actually in many cases you are trying to provoke your opponent into doing that.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

just use boxing jab and cross in between the two zombie arms and punch to the head.

He uses the right hook to deflect his opponent's left cross.

When you use Chinese zombie guard, it's difficult for your opponent to throw hook punch at you. Your opponent's straight punches (jab, cross) needs to come in between your arms. This make your defense simpler. All you need to do is to move your arms as inward circles.

 

[Damien]

Every guard has pluses and minuses, some are better than others. Whichever way you look at it, this guy gets clocked pretty hard a lot within the first minute. If you're going to use this, do it better! I'm not sure its evidence of it working particularly well.

I'm not a huge fan of the long guard. Against an opponent with longer arms, I definitely feel they have an advantage. They also have an advantage if you do move in and take it to the clinch due to better leverage. I'd prefer to have a closer guard and move in smothering or deflecting their strikes to get into my optimum range.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

More on the single arm version of the long guard for MMA:

 

[Tony Dismukes]

More specifically to your two handed version:

I think if you are going to use the long guard, understand both on and two handed versions is important.

Interesting that the video showcases Johnson’s use of the long guard against Cormier, because Cormier is also known to use the long guard effectively at times. I think that in this case Johnson’s superior reach may have made the tactic more effective for him.

 

[Alan0354]

He uses the right hook to deflect his opponent's left cross.

When you use Chinese zombie guard, it's difficult for your opponent to throw hook punch at you. Your opponent's straight punches (jab, cross) needs to come in between your arms. This make your defense simpler. All you need to do is to move your arms as inward circles.

I wish I can find the old video. That was a good beat down. Like I said, it's a different standard in UFC, try that in UFC.

I don't talk fight and arm chair commenting. Just watch UFC, look at the standard, the speed. It's scary. You open your face like this?!!! Not only you open the face, you open the ribs on the side. You serious think you can react to block with the kind of speed UFC fighters have when you hands are so far apart?

Also, what Tai Chi? I really like to see someone actually use their TMA to win in UFC, that will show me. Don't try to comb out the slightly little bit and say here is the technique. So far, I've seen Wing Chung front step kick that is obvious been used in UFC, I yet to see other technique. They do use a lot of TKD kicks, use a lot of boxing hands and Muy Thai stuffs. Those make up most of the striking in UFC, this is because those are effective and actually WORK.

Look at the MMA footwork, look at how fast they react. How fast they move in to attack, how fast they move away. It's a different world. they are not easy to trap.

this is a video of some MMA footwork:

You should watch those people do it in UFC fight, it's scary fast. Just doing this alone is like high impact aerobics. You need extreme conditioning to pull this off.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I wish I can find the old video. That was a good beat down. Like I said, it's a different standard in UFC, try that in UFC.

I don't talk fight and arm chair commenting. Just watch UFC, look at the standard, the speed. It's scary. You open your face like this?!!! Not only you open the face, you open the ribs on the side. You serious think you can react to block with the kind of speed UFC fighters have when you hands are so far apart?

You might want to look a little further up at Jared’s video showing the long guard being used effectively in the UFC.

Someone else who has been to known to use the double arm long guard on many occasions … 2x UFC light-heavyweight champion Jon Jones.

I think if you are going to use the long guard, understand both on and two handed versions is important.

I think one difference between the one and two handed versions is that the two handed version needs to be more of a transitional, situational, short term position used for a specific immediate purpose such as setting up a knee or manipulating an opponent’s body. I’ve seen it used at the highest levels of boxing, kickboxing, and MMA, but only for a few seconds at a time. In contrast, the single arm version can be maintained effectively for a much longer period.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't talk fight and arm chair commenting. Just watch UFC,

If we don't discuss strategy, principle, technique, ..., what else should we discuss in this forum?

 

[Jared Traveler]

You might want to look a little further up at Jared’s video showing the long guard being used effectively in the UFC.

Someone else who has been to known to use the double arm long guard on many occasions … 2x UFC light-heavyweight champion Jon Jones.



I think one difference between the one and two handed versions is that the two handed version needs to be more of a transitional, situational, short term position used for a specific immediate purpose such as setting up a knee or manipulating an opponent’s body. I’ve seen it used at the highest levels of boxing, kickboxing, and MMA, but only for a few seconds at a time. In contrast, the single arm version can be maintained effectively for a much longer period.

I tend to agree with that, based on my limited experience.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I find a video that a short guy uses the Chinese zombie guard (stiff arms guard) against a taller striker. It proves that you don't need long arms to make this strategy work.

View attachment 28825

It's easy to see that how you can use it to achieve a quick clinch. If your opponent

- punches you, you move in.
- don't punch you, you still move in.

What's your opinion on this strategy?

I’m not a fan of using the double arm long guard as a continuous strategy rather than as a momentary situational tactic. However if I was coaching the Tai Chi guy and he was determined to stick with that approach there are a few things I would want him to fix. His arms are too wide. He needs to bring them closer to his center line so that his hands are just outside the width of his face. He needs to raise his shoulders and tuck his chin. “Iron face” technique only works when your opponent lacks real knockout power. There are other aspects I’d want to refine, but I’d start with those.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

His arms are too wide. He needs to bring them closer to his center line so that his hands are just outside the width of his face.

This will invite his opponent to use left/right hooks on him.

I prefer to use

- "wide" long guard to invite my opponent's jab/cross. My arms only need to move as "inward" circles. Open my front door and close my side doors, or
- "narrow" long guard to invite my opponent's left/right hooks. My arms only need to move as "outward" circles. Close my front door and open my side doors.

I try not to deal with both jab/cross and left/right hook at the same time. My arms need to move as both "inward" circles and also "outward" circles. Open both my front door and side doors. If I can simplify my defense down to 50%, that will be to my advantage.

 

[Alan0354]

If we don't discuss strategy, principle, technique, ..., what else should we discuss in this forum?

I learned from my school almost 40 years ago, AND it is mostly used in UFC/MMA..............Hold the back-hand close to the face, leading-hand in front high, elbows close to the body, turn the body more sideways to present the minimal target to the opponent. DO NOT count on fancy blocking because it takes time to react, keep the hand close to protect the head so even if the attack comes to the head, the hand is there. DO NOT OVER ESTIMATE your ability to react to a punch to block or step away. DO NOT UNDER ESTIMATE the speed of the attacker, that you can use fancy moves to block. Stick to the BASICS. If all else fails, your hand is there to cushion the blow. That's what I follow by heart, keep it simple.

I am glad at least I found a TKD school in 1984 that evolved to more Bruce Lee/Kick Boxing style rather than traditional TKD. Kicking with leading leg(like Bruce Lee and in the video of footwork), forget the traditional punch and go with all boxing hands. He even invited a JJ instructor to teach the class once a while. This was almost 40 years ago. That show how advance my teacher was given Bruce Lee was still dominated the scene in 1984. Way before Royce Gracie and BJJ. Too bad he retired, I am very sure if he were still teaching, he would put a lot of effort in BJJ and Muy Thai because THEY WORK.

If I were 20 years younger, that I started training after UFC started, I would no doubt go straight to MMA, BJJ and Muy Thai. That I started AFTER the MA revolution of the 90s. All that I learn in kick boxing is not very useful at all now. Too bad. MMA eat kick boxing for breakfast. I don't think Bruce Lee could last a minute in UFC of today.

Don't think I am happy with all these. I am obsoleted also. I am just chop meat. I now use punching kicking heavy bags just for aerobics. More interesting than running!!! That's it.

 

[Jared Traveler]

I learned from my school almost 40 years ago, AND it is mostly used in UFC/MMA..............Hold the back-hand close to the face, leading-hand in front high, elbows close to the body, turn the body more sideways to present the minimal target to the opponent. DO NOT count on fancy blocking because it takes time to react, keep the hand close to protect the head so even if the attack comes to the head, the hand is there. DO NOT OVER ESTIMATE your ability to react to a punch to block or step away. DO NOT UNDER ESTIMATE the speed of the attacker, that you can use fancy moves to block. Stick to the BASICS. If all else fails, your hand is there to cushion the blow. That's what I follow by heart, keep it simple.

I am glad at least I found a TKD school in 1984 that evolved to more Bruce Lee/Kick Boxing style rather than traditional TKD. Kicking with leading leg(like Bruce Lee and in the video of footwork), forget the traditional punch and go with all boxing hands. He even invited a JJ instructor to teach the class once a while. This was almost 40 years ago. That show how advance my teacher was given Bruce Lee was still dominated the scene in 1984. Way before Royce Gracie and BJJ. Too bad he retired, I am very sure if he were still teaching, he would put a lot of effort in BJJ and Muy Thai because THEY WORK.

A double hand long block is a basic technique in Muay Thai. Granted as far as I can tell it is used momentarily to keep someone from clinching or landing a knee strike, but it is 101 Muay Thai.

 

[Jared Traveler]

Kung Fu Wang, one of the most basic, simple, effective applications of the double hand long guard is something I am unable to find a video on. But it has been drilled into me in Muay Thai.

It is a simple double handed shove(two hand long guard) to get someone stumbling backwards. While they are regarding balance, advance and strike. Either a low kick, body kick, elbow, cross or whatever strike.

So much of Muay Thai is setting up strikes when people are off balance.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It is a simple double handed shove(two hand long guard) to get someone stumbling backwards. While they are regarding balance, advance and strike. Either a low kick, body kick, elbow, cross or whatever strike.

So much of Muay Thai is setting up strikes when people are off balance.

Agree! When you move your arms inward, your forearms will touch on your opponent's forearms. Your hands can then slide to his elbow joints (or shoulder joints). Whether you want to push, or pull, you have options there.

From a wrestler point of view, one can use the long guard to move from the wrist gate into the elbow gate, or the shoulder gate. As long as his arms are inside and on top of his opponent's arms, he has advantage over his opponent.