" Chinese Wrestling "

[JowGaWolf]

I've always thought that a lot of the movements you see in striking arts may have originally had grappling, locking and throwing applications ..

I usually find this to be the case for a lot "striking" techniques that feel little off for a striking technique. Especially if the technique puts me into a position where I question the probability that I would be in that position to strike. If the technique doesn't feel right as a striking technique then see if it's a grappling technique.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Xu Xiadong trained real kung fu, got upset at the state of "masters" in China, and decided to do something about it,

He even states that he was only going after fakes. His goal wasn't to fight kung fu practioners who knew how to fight.

 

[Hanzou]

Both Ken and Dan were veterans on the ground but had, AFAIK, little training in Judo.

Funny thing. If you know Judo, you know nobody expects Judo! Especially wrestlers.

Wrestlers had dominated Judo for decades. It was a running joke that wrestlers would enter Judo comps and win. I do believe a big reason for the Olympic Judo rule change after 2008 was because a Mongolian wrestler ended up winning gold or silver by doing double-leg takedowns. Even embarrassing one of Japan's top Judoka. TBF, but the only grappling style that blunted wrestling's dominance in the grappling realm was Bjj. Judo could have done it, but Kano's hang-ups on ground grappling, and the push for Judo in the Olympics following WW2 stopped that from happening. It was the Brazilians who took Judo to its most logical stylistic conclusion.

 

[Hanzou]

I'm in the US and this logic is always strange to me because the same reasoning is not used for guns. Shoot an attacker is self defense, but thrown an attacker on his head And it's murder. The gun is more deadly than the throw.

I'm sure why so many can about the attacker when there is no gun, but when a gun is used many people say the attacker deserved to be shot. Maybe the majority of the people that I hear thus logic from don't live in the US.

I'm also from the US (though I'm currently overseas), and I don't understand it either. I suppose many Americans have a deep fear of being unable to defend themselves with their hands so they have a gun at their hip just to be sure they can be belligerent a-holes and not deal with any consequences.

That said, yeah if I'm in a street fight and choke someone to death, I'll be looking at quite some time behind bars unless I can prove that my life was in absolute peril. I think even if I dislocate a shoulder or a knee I could still be looking at some pretty hefty assault charges.

Shame, because I do love me some shoulder locks.....

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

One thing that's very important for Chinese wrestling is to remain balance when you throw your opponent on the ground. The reason are:

- not to drop your body on top of your opponent when your opponent is on the ground (for safety reason).
- maintain mobility so you can take off if you need to (when you deal with multiple opponents).

But after MMA is popular, people no longer train this any more.

I would train with you if you were near

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

This thread just got weird
Joking aside this below is oil wrestling
View attachment 29138

Where is his hand? Bro.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Yeah but kosen Judo? Also outside when on the ground no-one goes to the floor with anyone. You'll get a few kicks to the head..then that's it.

That’s right. Choking my buddy outside the bar gets you a soccer kick to the head. Who is tough now? It doesn’t mean a thing in the street. 230 grains of hollow point doesn’t care a damn about your superior technique.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

So I'm going to wrestle my pillow
Good night all...
View attachment 29149

Now this you can trust?

 

[Darren]

Anyone do this on here? @ 2:06 just picks him up..lol

 

[JowGaWolf]

I would train with you if you were near

Ha ha. I think I would need some beginner lessons.

 

[Alan0354]

You're not wrong. Wing Chun often gets slaughtered but nowadays there's a bunch of Wing Chun guys in MMA that don't.

That's how its supposed to work. I think we agree.

Xu Xiadong trained real kung fu, got upset at the state of "masters" in China, and decided to do something about it, which quite frankly dwarfs any professional combat sports competitor I can think of. And he paid the price too.

I must have missed it about the WC guys in MMA. Do they fight like the traditional WC or they fight like MMA?

If they start fighting like MMA, it's a different story, then it's not WC. Remember, those CMA people are very STUBBORN, they believe in following the tradition and history, that's the reason they got beat over and over. If they are humble and learn the things that WORK, sky is the limit. That's how it should be.

Don't mistaken that I trash Chinese, I am Chinese and I am PROUD of a lot of things that Chinese are good at. Look at how successful Chinese are in US. I am in high tech. Chinese DOMINATES the hardware engineering in electronics. Go to any high tech company, you can get away speaking Chinese!!! They buy real estate in the best part of town and drive the nicest cars. BUT when comes to MA, something really gone wrong. I just call it as it is. The pride and ego get in the way.

Chinese writing and painting are very good also..............BUT their music standard...........BAD too, this is speaking as a musician myself. I am a lot better as a musician than MA I can ever be. I was professional and won a lot of competition in HK in the 70s!!!!

I just call it as it is. They want to brag, go win some fights in the octagon with their tradition style, then we talk. Don't fight like MMA and claim they are CMA. I know there are good Chinese MMA fighter, I just saw a few fights not too long ago. They are MMA, they are very good too. AND please don't start telling me CMA have all the moves in MMA 1000 years ago!!!!

 

[Alan0354]

You should let that go and only focus on CMA and martial arts in general that can be used. What you do is like a person who had a bad dentist experience and think all dentist don't know what they are doing. Use you experience to help identify functional martial arts and quality teachers.

Too many of them.

 

[Hanzou]

That’s right. Choking my buddy outside the bar gets you a soccer kick to the head. Who is tough now? It doesn’t mean a thing in the street. 230 grains of hollow point doesn’t care a damn about your superior technique.

If your buddy is choking someone outside the bar, you’d still soccer kick the guy he’s choking. So instead of just getting kicked, the guy is getting choked too.

In short, fighting in the street is a bad idea, and should be avoided.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In short, fighting in the street is a bad idea, and should be avoided.

Self defense should include to defend your love one. When someone attacks your love one in the street, you can't avoid it.

The major reason that one trains MA is to develop some MA skill so in case he gets into a street fight, he can survive.

Again, sport is the path, combat is the goal. It makes sense to spend some of your life time in sport. But to spend all your life in sport just make no sense to me. When you train for sport, you train those legal moves. When you train for combat, you train those illegal moves.

Combat can be in many different forms:

- Battle field.
- Police work, secret service job, body guard duty, ...
- Challenge fight.
- Street fight.
- ...

 

[JowGaWolf]

Too many of them.

I would agree with that. In comparison to the schools that actually train the application through sparring. But I think that will change with the up coming generations. I think it will be the ones who have a passion for martial arts application that will do it. Also teachers will need to teach martial art application through sparring against different systems.

 

[Hanzou]

Self defense should include to defend your love one. When someone attacks your love one in the street, you can't avoid it.

The major reason that one trains MA is to develop some MA skill so in case he gets into a street fight, he can survive.

Again, sport is the path, combat is the goal.

Combat can be in many different forms:

- Battle field.
- Police work, secret service job, body guard duty, ...
- Challenge fight.
- Street fight.
- ...

Realistically though, in what situation would you find yourself in a situation where a street fight would occur and you have no choice but to protect yourself? I would argue that 99% of "street fights" are situations you can easily avoid if you keep your ego in check and simply walk away, or if you don't frequent certain areas like bars or pubs. That 1% is when you're dealing with an unhinged person who simply won't allow you to escape. Challenge fights fall into that category as well where 9/10 times you can simply walk away from the situation and let the person say whatever they want.

Unless you're a soldier, "Battlefield" isn't going to apply, but even if you are a soldier, chances are you're using weapons, and you're not running around the place with your shirt off looking to fight someone hand to hand.

Frankly. the most likely situation where you're going to apply martial arts training is police work, security, and similar lines of work. I would add being a teacher to that list, since some schools are pretty much havens for violence, and I've seen plenty of instances where teachers had to fight off crazed teenagers who are often bigger and stronger.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Realistically though, in what situation would you find yourself in a situation where a street fight would occur and you have no choice but to protect yourself?

Not to protect yourself, but to protect someone else.

You walk in the street. A guy tries to drag a girl into his car. The girl is screeaming. There are no police around. No street people are willing to help.

If you let that person to drag that girl into his car and drive away, you don't know what will happen to that girl.

You don't know that girl. You just feel that you should do something. A punch on that guy's head may not be needed. But a head lock from behind and force the guy to release that girl seems to be a good option.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Realistically though, in what situation would you find yourself in a situation where a street fight would occur and you have no choice but to protect yourself? I would argue that 99% of "street fights" are situations you can easily avoid if you keep your ego in check and simply walk away, or if you don't frequent certain areas like bars or pubs. That 1% is when you're dealing with an unhinged person who simply won't allow you to escape. Challenge fights fall into that category as well where 9/10 times you can simply walk away from the situation and let the person say whatever they want.

Unless you're a soldier, "Battlefield" isn't going to apply, but even if you are a soldier, chances are you're using weapons, and you're not running around the place with your shirt off looking to fight someone hand to hand.

Frankly. the most likely situation where you're going to apply martial arts training is police work, security, and similar lines of work. I would add being a teacher to that list, since some schools are pretty much havens for violence, and I've seen plenty of instances where teachers had to fight off crazed teenagers who are often bigger and stronger.

Must teachers are not fit enough to go toe to toe with a teenager. Being older and out of shape puts them at a big disadvantage. Self defense for nost of them will need to be more preventive. Maybe educate teens at an early age about the law. Some teens do things because they know they are under 18. They don't have a good understanding of the exception that would make it legal for an adult to hit a teen.

 

[Jimmythebull]

Must teachers are not fit enough to go toe to toe with a teenager. Being older and out of shape puts them at a big disadvantage. Self defense for nost of them will need to be more preventive. Maybe educate teens at an early age about the law. Some teens do things because they know they are under 18. They don't have a good understanding of the exception that would make it legal for an adult to hit a teen.

This is the sad reality & against a gang it's difficult.

 

[Hanzou]

Not to protect yourself, but to protect someone else.

You walk in the street. A guy tries to drag a girl into his car. The girl is screeaming. There are no police around. No street people are willing to help.

If you let that person to drag that girl into his car and drive away, you don't know what will happen to that girl.

You don't know that girl. You just feel that you should do something. A punch on that guy's head may not be needed. But a head lock from behind and force the guy to release that girl seems to be a good option.

Eh, I doubt I’d get involved in something like that. If I think it looks sketchy, I’d notify the police. There’s self defense, protecting others, and then there’s trying to be Batman without a costume. That can get you killed.