" Chinese Wrestling "

[Alan0354]

Nothing against BJJ but I'm sick of people thinking it's somehow invincible..utter BS

No, I call it as it is. Gracie did ruled the first few UFC, he opened the eyes of the world. But then wrestlers took over. Gracie was destroyed later by Matt Huges.

Thinking back after someone said Royce Gracie was sloppy. There might be some truth. I don't know enough to judge, but sure seems like the stuffs is a lot tighter in MMA ground game compare to Gracie.

People should let winning do the talking, not by garbage mouth. It's a really turn off. You should listen if you were in Hong Kong. I am so sick and tired of those trash talk...........AND then see them being slaughtered in the modern days.

 

[Jimmythebull]

No, I call it as it is.

Was just talking in general, not you Alan. I hear it a lot ...I do BJJ I'M a blue belt..who cares.
They think it's some kind of badge of recognition.that they are bad.

 

[Jimmythebull]

So I'm going to wrestle my pillow
Good night all...

 

[Hanzou]

Yeah but kosen Judo? Also outside when on the ground no-one goes to the floor with anyone. You'll get a few kicks to the head..then that's it.

Kosen is merely a ruleset. These days, Judoka looking to improve their ground game go to Bjj, even in Japan.

As for fighting on the ground, I’ve seen plenty of street fights go there, whether people want to go there or not. Best to be the one who knows what to do.

 

[geezer]

Here is a SC introduction video to share. It was filmed in 1980.

John, thanks so much for sharing this old video. I find it very interesting just how many of the solo drills look exactly like pieces of forms from striking arts ranging from long fist to wing chun. I've always thought that a lot of the movements you see in striking arts may have originally had grappling, locking and throwing applications ...yes, even in Wing Chun. Some examples:

-The drawing shown in the beginning at 0:33 above, with the elbow striking the opponent's chin looks exactly like a technique in my WC branch called gwai-jarn that I sometimes use to set up a throw. The throw part is not really taught as far as I know, it's just something that made sense to me.

- The "bowing" excercise at 7:07 above: Looks a lot like the final movement sequence in Wing Chun's Biu Tze form, and the throw shown could probably be added onto a WC close range combination as a finishing move. I will definitely experiment with that as soon as we get back into the training room with mats! See Biu Tze, 1:48-1:55 below:

-The "Belt Cracking" training show from 8:33 to 8:53 above: ...that's already been shown being integrated with Wing Chun (Ving Tsun) by the well known Wong Shun Leung lineage instructor , Wang Zhi Peng in Beijing:

 

[Alan0354]

So I'm going to wrestle my pillow
Good night all...
View attachment 29149

Good night, it's late your time.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Problem is those kind of Judo stuff end at throwing the opponent to the ground. But it is proven throw to the ground is ONLY the start, then comes the ground game that those Judo really don't have anything. I called those Judo in the generic term, they all the same.

Plenty of judoka have a fine ground game without ever training BJJ. Could they improve on it by cross training sure, but if you learn ground techniques in Judo properly...it's pretty much the same experience, IMHO. Same warmups, subs, chokes, sweeps, throws, bridging, bumping. And these were not even Kosen judo competitors, these were traditional Kodokan schools with comp teams.

Actually I've rolled with about as many high level judoka as BJJ belts, never really noticed a difference in the newaza between the two. Never ever met a Judoka that could not do well on the ground, though their strats often differ a bit (attrition vs upgrading position etc).

No gi? Definitely goes to the BJJ no gi players but that's because no gi Judo is not a thing AFAIk.

But this idea that Judo is just for throws and don't train on the ground (well), na dude. Best ground grappling partner I ever had was not a BJJ black belt, it was a Judo black belt with 40 years experience. Total badass.

 

[Alan0354]

Plenty of judoka have a fine ground game without ever training BJJ. Could they improve on it by cross training sure, but if you learn ground techniques in Judo properly...it's pretty much the same experience, IMHO. Same warmups, subs, chokes, sweeps, throws, bridging, bumping. And these were not even Kosen judo competitors, these were traditional Kodokan schools with comp teams.

Actually I've rolled with about as many high level judoka as BJJ belts, never really noticed a difference in the newaza between the two. Never ever met a Judoka that could not do well on the ground, though their strats often differ a bit (attrition vs upgrading position etc).

No gi? Definitely goes to the BJJ no gi players but that's because no gi Judo is not a thing AFAIk.

But this idea that Judo is just for throws and don't train on the ground (well), na dude. Best ground grappling partner I ever had was not a BJJ black belt, it was a Judo black belt with 40 years experience. Total badass.

I just judge by the all videos shown by Kung Fung Wang, all the talk, most just look like Judo that I learned before.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Because they got creamed.

Not really. Early UFCs were pretty vacant of decent ground grappling arts for a reason.

Royce Gracie would not have faired well against a decent judoka or wrestler. So they made damn sure he only fought pro wrestlers and people with no ground training.

As soon as that changed, BJJ was still destined to take off, but judo players had been doing that stuff for a long time before the Gracie Challenge.

 

[Alan0354]

Not really. Early UFCs were pretty vacant of decent ground grappling arts for a reason.

Royce Gracie would not have faired well against a decent judoka or wrestler. So they made damn sure he only fought pro wrestlers and people with no ground training.

As soon as that changed, BJJ was still destined to take off, but judo players had been doing that stuff for a long time before the Gracie Challenge.

CMA did not get creamed? We must be watching different UFC. CMA never make it back in the Octagon. Now, there are CHINESE fighting in the Octagon, but they are MMA and fight like MMA.

I am not defending Gracie, I already said he disappeared since UFC3, then wrestlers took over. Gracie got slaughtered by Matt Huges later.

Even BJJ really have not come back, I saw people from Brazil fought in UFC later, but I don't think they claimed to be BJJ. They fought like MMA. So maybe BJJ is out of tough like CMA too.

 

[Hanzou]

Plenty of judoka have a fine ground game without ever training BJJ. Could they improve on it by cross training sure, but if you learn ground techniques in Judo properly...it's pretty much the same experience, IMHO. Same warmups, subs, chokes, sweeps, throws, bridging, bumping. And these were not even Kosen judo competitors, these were traditional Kodokan schools with comp teams.

Actually I've rolled with about as many high level judoka as BJJ belts, never really noticed a difference in the newaza between the two. Never ever met a Judoka that could not do well on the ground, though their strats often differ a bit (attrition vs upgrading position etc).

Eh, with modern guards and leg locks in BJJ, and Judo actually regressing due to competitive rule changes, I really don't see how that's the case.

 

[Oily Dragon]

CMA did not get creamed? We must be watching different UFC. CMA never make it back in the Octagon. Now, there are CHINESE fighting in the Octagon, but they are MMA and fight like MMA.

I am not defending Gracie, I already said he disappeared since UFC3, then wrestlers took over. Gracie got slaughtered by Matt Huges later.

Even BJJ really have not come back, I saw people from Brazil fought in UFC later, but I don't think they claimed to be BJJ. They fought like MMA. So maybe BJJ is out of tough like CMA too.

CMA did not get creamed, since some of the very first UFC winners were fighting under Asian martial arts banners. Even the ones fighting under the Brazilian flag were really just doing judo newaza and slapping their family name on it.

Ninjas got creamed, along with the pro wrestlers. CMA/FMA/JMA/KMA did OK, imho.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Eh, with modern guards and leg locks in BJJ, and Judo actually regressing due to competitive rule changes, I really don't see how that's the case.

My judo experience is just that old, dude. Like me. BJJ is just the youngin of the two, if you get me. Scrappy, sure.

If things have changed, it'd be hard for me to even tell, I'm too busy training the way I know.

 

[Alan0354]

CMA did not get creamed, since some of the very first UFC winners were fighting under Asian martial arts banners. Even the ones fighting under the Brazilian flag were really just doing judo newaza and slapping their family name on it.

Ninjas got creamed, along with the pro wrestlers. CMA/FMA/JMA/KMA did OK, imho.

It's easy, go up to the octagon now and see. I remember I saw a few CMA in the introduction clip in UFC2, I remember the Wing Chung got slaughtered.

CMA should test out their stuffs in the octagon, you have the goods, audition and go win. If they win, then they can talk all the trash and it's ok. Don't be like the days after Bruce Lee died, everyone came out and said they can beat him and talk trash. I was there those days.

 

[Hanzou]

Not really. Early UFCs were pretty vacant of decent ground grappling arts for a reason.

Royce Gracie would not have faired well against a decent judoka or wrestler. So they made damn sure he only fought pro wrestlers and people with no ground training.

As soon as that changed, BJJ was still destined to take off, but judo players had been doing that stuff for a long time before the Gracie Challenge.

Uh, he fought both Ken Shamrock and Dan Severn in the early UFCs and beat them both. The reason their ground game sucked was because no one took ground fighting seriously in those days. Even Judo had largely neglected it by the early 1990s.

 

[Hanzou]

My judo experience is just that old, dude. Like me. BJJ is just the youngin of the two, if you get me. Scrappy, sure.

If things have changed, it'd be hard for me to even tell, I'm too busy training the way I know.

Yes, things have changed considerably. Especially in the last 15 or so years thanks to no-gi and leglocks. Leglocks especially being the largest evolutionary push in the art in some time. For example, Ashi Garami, a banned leglock in Judo became a Guard variation.

 

[Oily Dragon]

It's easy, go up to the octagon now and see. I remember I saw a few CMA in the introduction clip in UFC2, I remember the Wing Chung got slaughtered.

CMA should test out their stuffs in the octagon, you have the goods, audition and go win. If they win, then they can talk all the trash and it's ok. Don't be like the days after Bruce Lee died, everyone came out and said they can beat him and talk trash. I was there those days.

You're not wrong. Wing Chun often gets slaughtered but nowadays there's a bunch of Wing Chun guys in MMA that don't.

That's how its supposed to work. I think we agree.

Xu Xiadong trained real kung fu, got upset at the state of "masters" in China, and decided to do something about it, which quite frankly dwarfs any professional combat sports competitor I can think of. And he paid the price too.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Uh, he fought both Ken Shamrock and Dan Severn in the early UFCs and beat them both. The reason their ground game sucked was because no one took ground fighting seriously in those days. Even Judo had largely neglected it by the early 1990s.

Both Ken and Dan were veterans on the ground but had, AFAIK, little training in Judo.

Funny thing. If you know Judo, you know nobody expects Judo! Especially wrestlers.

I just made this. Copyright is free to everyone feel free to share.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The other issue is the chance of injury or even death that can be caused from throwing someone on their head or back. Good luck explaining to a judge and jury why you had to paralyze a guy at a bar because he slapped your girl’s butt.

I'm in the US and this logic is always strange to me because the same reasoning is not used for guns. Shoot an attacker is self defense, but thrown an attacker on his head And it's murder. The gun is more deadly than the throw.

I'm sure why so many can about the attacker when there is no gun, but when a gun is used many people say the attacker deserved to be shot. Maybe the majority of the people that I hear thus logic from don't live in the US.

 

[JowGaWolf]

. I can only speak from my experience of CMA people when I was in Hong Kong those days.

You should let that go and only focus on CMA and martial arts in general that can be used. What you do is like a person who had a bad dentist experience and think all dentist don't know what they are doing. Use you experience to help identify functional martial arts and quality teachers.