Chin na training

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Wing Woo Gar

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I'm willing to bet that it's more effective when you use the correct amount of force applied correctly vs the least amount of force.

It probably seems light the least amount of force because you aren't trying to brute force a technique. It's the same way punches work. A relaxed punch only seems like the least amount of force is being used in reality more force is delivered with a relaxed punch than a brute force one. You aren't trying to punch with the least amount of force unless you are light sparring.

Chin na is the same way. You aren't trying to use the least amount of force unless you are sparring and learning because the correct amount of force that you would use in full contact would destroy the joints.

If I'm in a fight I don't want to ride with the brakes on by trying to use the least. In training yes. In a fight no.
Nobody is riding the brakes. Again, the post was asking people who TRAINED in Chin Na to share those experiences. We dont really need to explore fight scenarios, there are plenty of those threads. I want to know about your TRAINING.
 
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Wing Woo Gar

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Force while locked, or force applying the lock, they are not the same.

My Yang Taijiquan Shifu was the best I had ever seen or experienced with Qinna, I am very far from his level. I can always tell when someone is about to go for Qinna, sometimes I can counter, sometimes I cannot. Dr Yang, I could tell, but there was no way I was going to counter (he dropped me to my knees once in a push hands class by using qinna)

However I could never tell with my Yang Shifu, all of a sudden you are locked, and not getting out of it. And he was not using as force as Dr Yang. I asked him how he did that, his answer "You lock yourself". Basically he is just waiting for you to be at the correct angle and then applying only the force necessary to apply his Qinna
Thank you for staying with the topic of the thread. I wonder if I was not clear about what I meant about force use in this particular context? The force is applied once the lock is accomplished is a better way to describe it. If force is applied in the attempt to lock then it becomes a strength vs strength contest. Dr. Yang has been very clear about this each time we train. Training being the key word, people are so wrapped up in the ninja/gangster/ISIS ambush scenarios that they miss the point. Im learning Chin Na because it relates to my hobby that I love.
 
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Wing Woo Gar

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I'm willing to bet that it's more effective when you use the correct amount of force applied correctly vs the least amount of force.

It probably seems light the least amount of force because you aren't trying to brute force a technique. It's the same way punches work. A relaxed punch only seems like the least amount of force is being used in reality more force is delivered with a relaxed punch than a brute force one. You aren't trying to punch with the least amount of force unless you are light sparring.

Chin na is the same way. You aren't trying to use the least amount of force unless you are sparring and learning because the correct amount of force that you would use in full contact would destroy the joints.

If I'm in a fight I don't want to ride with the brakes on by trying to use the least. In training yes. In a fight no.
I dont understand this post. Im asking about your experiences training, not advice on mine. Just how much is the correct amount of force ? Im well aware of how CMA punches work. I dont need, or want too much force in a jab either. I am talking about training and sparring, not fighting, so then, it would appear you agree with me that less force is better since Im just learning and not trying to maim a training brother. Again, tell me about your experiences in training Chin Na with your instructor, thats what Im interested in.
 

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Thank you for staying with the topic of the thread. I wonder if I was not clear about what I meant about force use in this particular context? The force is applied once the lock is accomplished is a better way to describe it. If force is applied in the attempt to lock then it becomes a strength vs strength contest. Dr. Yang has been very clear about this each time we train. Training being the key word, people are so wrapped up in the ninja/gangster/ISIS ambush scenarios that they miss the point. Im learning Chin Na because it relates to my hobby that I love.
Many years ago when I was at a push hands seminar in Boston, when Dr Yang main school was there, I was talking to one of the his teachers at the school about the seminars and he told me they all had there personality

Push hands and Taiji were pretty normal
Qigong folks were a bit spacey
Qinna folks belonged in Prison :D
 

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Has anyone done any extensive Chin Na training?
The 3 steps wrist lock is a good example that indicate the locking skill need to be changed depending on your opponent's respond. In other words, you need to train how to move from one lock into next lock.

敺 There is a give-and-take.

1. You use downward force wrist lock. Your opponent raises elbow to counter.
2. You change your downward force into horizontal force. Your opponent spins his body. to counter.
3. You change horizontal force into horizontal pulling force.

What can be your opponent's counter at step 3?

 
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Wing Woo Gar

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Many years ago when I was at a push hands seminar in Boston, when Dr Yang main school was there, I was talking to one of the his teachers at the school about the seminars and he told me they all had there personality

Push hands and Taiji were pretty normal
Qigong folks were a bit spacey
Qinna folks belonged in Prison :D
I remember you telling me this when I started and overall, I agree.
 

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Nikyo Wrist Lock - Aikido

Does it make sense to use your left hand to grab on your opponent's right wrist? Your opponent's left hand can punch on your face.

When you use left hand to grab on your opponent's left wrist, if your opponent's right hand tries to punch on your face, you can pull his left arm to jam his right arm. You can't do that in the above video.

IMO, when you use left hand to control your opponent's right wrist, you should also use your right hand to control his left wrist (so he can't punch you).

 
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JowGaWolf

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Nobody is riding the brakes. Again, the post was asking people who TRAINED in Chin Na to share those experiences. We dont really need to explore fight scenarios, there are plenty of those threads. I want to know about your TRAINING.
The only training I'm doing at the moment are the Fundamental Training exercises and conditioning found in the book Analysis of Shaolin Chin Na - 1nd Edition by Jwing-Ming Yang.
 
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Wing Woo Gar

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Does it make sense to use your left hand to grab on your opponent's right wrist? Your opponent's left hand can punch on your face.

When you use left hand to grab on your opponent's left wrist, if your opponent's right hand tries to punch on your face, you can pull his left arm to jam his right arm. You can't do that in the above video.

IMO, when you use left hand to control your opponent's right wrist, you should also use your right hand to control his left wrist (so he can't punch you).

Or move your feet while doing something something something. They are just standing there.
 
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Wing Woo Gar

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The only training I'm doing at the moment are the Fundamental Training exercises and conditioning found in the book Analysis of Shaolin Chin Na - 1nd Edition by Jwing-Ming Yang.
But you had a teacher that taught you this stuff in your Jow Ga kwoon?
 

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Nikyo Wrist Lock - Aikido

Another thing that doesn't make sense in this video is when his opponent uses left hand to grab on his right wrist, he turns his right hand counterclockwise to against his opponent's 4 fingers instead of to turn his right hand clockwise to against his opponent's 1 finger, the thumb. If his opponent has strong grip, he may not be able to turn his right hand counterclockwise (4 fingers strength is much stronger than 1 finger strength).
 

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I dont understand this post. Im asking about your experiences training, not advice on mine. Just how much is the correct amount of force ?
I'm not giving you advice on your training. It's the wording of "applying the least amount" I've just seen many people take that into the wrong direction when it comes to martial arts. For example, I've heard many people say things like "use the least amount....." to defeat someone or to use a technique, yet all of the people I've met who knew how to apply their martial arts were strong.

So when I hear those in the martial arts world say "least amount...." I really begin to question how they are defining "least amount."
 

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I'm not giving you advice on your training. It's the wording of "applying the least amount" I've just seen many people take that into the wrong direction when it comes to martial arts. For example, I've heard many people say things like "use the least amount....." to defeat someone or to use a technique, yet all of the people I've met who knew how to apply their martial arts were strong.

So when I hear those in the martial arts world say "least amount...." I really begin to question how they are defining "least amount."
How about "least amount necessary to make the technique work"?
 

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The force is applied once the lock is accomplished is a better way to describe it. If force is applied in the attempt to lock then it becomes a strength vs strength contest. Dr. Yang has been very clear about this each time we train.
This is what is a better explanation. I just really don't like the "apply the least" phrases so it's just one of my soap box thing lol. The only days I've know kung fu to be "the least" amount were my healing days lol.
 

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So when I hear those in the martial arts world say "least amount...." I really begin to question how they are defining "least amount."
To break a grip by turning against 1 finger (the thumb) can use less force than by turning against 4 fingers. So the correct force direction may be the better term.

Even today, I still don't understand the definition of "brute force". When I pull my opponent, am I using brute force? I think I am.

How can I use "lease amount" of force to pull?

 
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JowGaWolf

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How about "least amount necessary to make the technique work"?
I like the most explanation Wing Woo gave. Least amount is just an eye of the beholder type thing. The least amount for you would probably still be a considerable amount for someone else. best example I can give is forearm conditioning where one partner thinks he's giving "baby taps" why the other person feels like their arm is about to break.
 

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To break a grip by turning against 1 finger (the thumb) can use less force than by turning against 4 fingers. So the correct force direction may be the better term.
I like this one as well.
 

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Does it make sense to use your left hand to grab on your opponent's right wrist? Your opponent's left hand can punch on your face.

When you use left hand to grab on your opponent's left wrist, if your opponent's right hand tries to punch on your face, you can pull his left arm to jam his right arm. You can't do that in the above video.

IMO, when you use left hand to control your opponent's right wrist, you should also use your right hand to control his left wrist (so he can't punch you).

It's probably depends on the stance that you or your opponent is in. I know for me I'm only going to offer one arm to grab unless I'm in closer range.. I feel comfortable when I only have one arm to think about vs 2.
 

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Even today, I still don't understand the definition of "brute force". When I pull my opponent, am I using brute force? I think I am.

How can I use "lease amount" of force to pull?
Brute force is like Woo was describing when it becomes a competition of strength vs strength. In your example clip. What you are doing is using strength but you aren't brute forcing it. Brute force would be like you see that I'm ready to defend against your pull, but you go for the pull anyway so that you can use greater strength against resistance. But in your videos. It looks like you are pulling when your opponent is not expecting it and then when he tries to stop you with brute a stronger force, then you stopped using strength in one direction and then apply it in another direction.

From what I've seen from many of your clips, you are very far from what I would consider brute force. You use strength and power, but it doesn't seem like it's a competition of seeing who is going to over power who.
 

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