Chi-sau Vs. Lat Sau- What is your opinion?

[yak sao]

Sorry for my ignorance, but what are lat sau "sections"? I don't think I've ever come across these in my experience...

The EWTO ( European Wing Tsun Organization),the HQ of which is in Germany, is headed up by Keith Kernspecht, a direct student of Leung Ting.
KK came up with several programs (or sections) of lat sau to be taught to WT students at the beginning of their training to accelerate the learning process giving new students a pretty good grasp on how WT fights, early in their training.
Each program was taught at a different student level and were numbered accordingly.
So student grade one would learn program one of lat sau and so on.

In the US, the early WT groups were directly under LT and did not learn this German way of doing lat sau. They learned the Hong Kong method. Later generations of WT in the US learned the German way as European instructors came here and passed it along.

As an example, program one deals with straight line punching attacks at high, middle and low,along with low kicks to the legs.
Fifth program deals with knees and elbows and so on.

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

Lotta good folks in Texas. It's a shame that sometimes organizational politics keep them apart. Same problem here in AZ. IMHO life's too short for that kinda garbage.

I agree Geez. Parker ex-commuicated us after our seperation. Glenn was his longest standing student of over 10 years. The sick part is that Glenn gave so much to that school, and Ram was literally running it for the last 2 years that he was there.

But all is well. They are now a part of City Wing Tsun under Sifu Alex Richter (New York). After the big split last year, there was many groups that went off, including Lau Sifu (Canada) and Sifu Haw Kuo (Art of Wing Tsun)... All the afore-mentioned are very skilled martial artists and wonderful people.

The IWTA is about over with in the US. Many of us just couldn't take the squeeze anymore, and I am genuinely happy that there are other alternatives for WT in the US now.


All the best!

Jeff

 

[geezer]

Yak, your historical explanation is right on the money. Before Thomas Dolniski and Emin visited the US from Germany in the late 80s, we WT students under LT never sau the "lat sau" sections. Later, when Emin took over the IWTMAA, later called the IWTA, Lat Sau became part of the standard training. LT hated it, and after Emin left to form EBMAS, LT stopped allowing the German drills. I left WT in the early 90s and never did much of the German stuff. But after I got back into it and then joined the NVTO in 2007, I've been practicing and teaching that material and definitely see its value for the student.

Since I'm so old that I date back to the pre "lat-sau" days, I can see that these forms were reverse-engineered from the WT Chi-Sau sections bt KK for the EWTO. And, technically, I must say that this training system has the depth and quality associated worldwide with "German engineering". When students get into chi-sau after mastering the "lat-sau" sets, it all makes so much more sense to them. When you show them a chi-sau "section", they already have the structures down and they already know the applications.

 

[Thunder Foot]

Can anyone post some examples of the lat sau sections? I've played lat sau, but it was never patternized. I'm assuming by the description it was HKs lat sau. Though now that I recall we did try to pull out a few combinations from the form and dummy set.

 

[Nabakatsu]

Here's one example.. not EXACTLY the way My group has been doing this, but it looks close enough.. more of a demo of sifu cengiz beating up his student:

 

[Nabakatsu]

Seems like the structure falls apart towards the end, and the other guy getting beat up clearly is being overwhelmed.. his spine isn't straight.. his knees appear to lack the appropriate adduction..
but he keeps going so.. yeah!

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

I really like the discussion on the different ways you can evolve and play Chi Sao.
Personally, because of my research I've been moving away from Chi Sao as a long game. I've been more into the applications as a way to accelerate the learning for self defense against commons street attacks from people with ill intentions.

This is different than training for a match where the other person has certain respect for the other and has a defensive game to "win" the match.

Training to close the distance is very important. Yet this sometimes assume offensive strategy, which also assumes you want to fight, which is not considered a nice thing to do by district attorneys and judges. So care must be taken.

Training for when you DON'T want to fight is also important, where the attacker comes at you with SIGNIFICANT momentum and aggressive rage that can overwhelm certain defenses. Here, keeping structure and surviving the attack becomes primary to a significant initial response.

Hope this helps. Good summary of the Lat Sao and Chi Sao training methods.

Sincerely,

Juan Mercado

 

[WTchap]

Here's one example.. not EXACTLY the way My group has been doing this, but it looks close enough.. more of a demo of sifu cengiz beating up his student:

There's some interesting things being worked here, but this is very different to the Hong Kong Lat Sau. It is actually quite hard to find video of it, but some does exist (snippets found in TV shows/programs that feature Leung Ting). You can find little bits of footage mixed in to the usual Chi Sau, dummy, forms etc, and then you can see how the Lat Sau in HK is very footwork driven.

The drill in this video is kinda cool but it doesn't offer too much in term of entry from a non-bridge position, and lacks the footwork that goes with flowing attacks. Still, there are some nice things you can work from it.

 

[WTchap]

Ps. Sifu Haw Kuo had up on his website/facebook some really nice articles/posts on Lat Sau and Chi Sau, as he learned it from his Chinese Sifu and also from Leung Ting and the top guys in HK. Worth a read! :wink:

 

[Nabakatsu]

Yeah, the lat sau program starts with shin connection, and does include footwork, the video posted was not the best example.. but it served as a tool to show what it kind of looks like

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

Ps. Sifu Haw Kuo had up on his website/facebook some really nice articles/posts on Lat Sau and Chi Sau, as he learned it from his Chinese Sifu and also from Leung Ting and the top guys in HK. Worth a read! :wink:

Sifu Haw Kuo is an amazing Sifu! I've only had the chance to touch hands with him a few times, but he made me believe in WT. He showed me how a little guy (probably a 100lbs...seriously) can knock a 210lb guy (me) around like a ****ing rag-doll. I have nothing but the utmost respect for his method and his philosophy. And he still has those posts up. Go look at artofwingtsun.com or find Haw Sifu on facebook. "Sifu Haw Kuo" in the search bar for FB.

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

Nabakatsu,

That "shin-connection" as you put it is the German Lat-sau. Whilst it IS a useful training device, I personally don't like it. Not because of the effectiveness. Trust me I learned many things from it. But in my teaching style (which I will post another comment about) does not couple the GLS programs.

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

First off, in reply to "Thunderfoot" (I believe):

I would post some video examples of the lat-sau programs, but #1 I broke the hell outta my computer screen, so I don't know how it if I could pull it off, and #2 the only person I have around right now to show these would be my dad, and maybe tomorrow I could have him demonstrate with me. To be honest, I don't really advocate the programs. I think with lat-sau, if your going to practice you need to go slow during the learning process so you train the correct responses for the correct formed actions.

When you put on the gloves is the time to throw caution to the wind, with my students (or students I used to have as I just recently relocated), I would do lat-sau almost every session, and once or twice a week I would just do regular chinese lat-sau (Going at it, no pads, just controlling techniques). There is a good quote from Ip Man 3: Ip Chun (playing Leung Bik) says "When sparring with someone you hold back only your force, not your skill" or some such thing, which is to say, that while you are controlling your techniques so as not to hurt your partner, you are not holding anything back. You give it your all and let your WingTsun flow through you (ya, that was a star wars reference ...

I don't really teach in a set format. Every student is different. And they learn differently. To be an effective teacher, you don't just need to throw techniques at your students. You need to evaluate each students ability and what they NEED to learn in order to be effective. I teach what I call "Meat and potatoes" wingtsun. I teach what the student needs to learn to be effective and only things that will help him/her on their path to becoming the best they can be.

My ex-fiance was an extremely gifted judoka, and I taught her almost no chi-sau, because she didn't need it. I focused so much on lat-sau and she ran with it and did very well.

So it's all about what is good for you and your students, what makes it good for you. What helps them learn better.

Anyways folks, my screen is being extra stupid right this second so I'm going to wrap this up.

I am very happy that this thread is getting so much attentino, it is very heartening to see so many WT/WC (and all the others) people who are getting into the philosophy and mechanics of WT.

All the best ya'll,

Jeff

 

[Thunder Foot]

First off, in reply to "Thunderfoot" (I believe):......

Jeff

Thank you for the in-depth reply. I have another question however. What is the purpose of the shin connection? I thought one of the defining characteristics of lat sau was "no bridge"? Am I mis-understanding?

Also the chain punching, what is being worked here? Are we learning how to effectively chain punch in this drill? and work off the chain punch? I ask because the Wing Chun that I play doesn't really use the "chain punch" per se... as we tend to use it more as a drill.

 

[yak sao]

Thank you for the in-depth reply. I have another question however. What is the purpose of the shin connection? I thought one of the defining characteristics of lat sau was "no bridge"? Am I mis-understanding?

Also the chain punching, what is being worked here? Are we learning how to effectively chain punch in this drill? and work off the chain punch? I ask because the Wing Chun that I play doesn't really use the "chain punch" per se... as we tend to use it more as a drill.

The no bridge is simply the starting point. Once you move into close range, a bridge must be built and maintained in order to control and feel the intentions of your opponent.
By having shin contact with our lead leg against the leg of our opponent, we are able to not only sense when a kick is being attempted, we are able to unbalance the opponent and keep the kick from ever happening.
By being in contact with the leg, we are able to sense as he moves away and stick to him, maintaining a constant presence in his face, instead of having to re-enter our range every time he moves back.

Same for the arms. It begins from no bridge, and we move into range where we are able to stick to our opponent's arms. If he tries to crash through the center, our arms are there to deter. If he tries to go around them, then our arms thrust forward and attack, they don't stick for the sake of sticking.
Chi sau/lat sau are both very close range. The better we are able to nullify the opponent's attacks, the more effecient we will be.

As for chain punching, the WT fighter seeks to end the fight as quickly and effeciently as possible. The chain punch is as much an overall strategy being trained as it is a tactic to be employed.
The new student doesn't have many tools at his disposal, so the chain punch is a way of imparting this concept of dominating the fight and centerline early on.

The further you get in WT, the more options you have at your disposal, but so many times a quick flurry down the middle ends it, so there is no need to go on to other things.
The best WT is simple WT.

 

[geezer]

As for chain punching, the WT fighter seeks to end the fight as quickly and effeciently as possible. The chain punch is as much an overall strategy being trained as it is a tactic to be employed.
The new student doesn't have many tools at his disposal, so the chain punch is a way of imparting this concept of dominating the fight and centerline early on.

The further you get in WT, the more options you have at your disposal, but so many times a quick flurry down the middle ends it, so there is no need to go on to other things.
The best WT is simple WT.

Well said Yak. So many people don't get this. They rag on 'Chun for all the "mindless" chain punching. They don't understand that chain punching and pursuing step is just a way of teaching how to unleash a continuous flow of aggressive techniques.

Later, as a student matures in his skills, he can maintain that same continuous offensive blitz while effectively varying his choice of techniques, targets, and timing. If a beginner tries to do the same thing, mentally selecting from a large menu of possible targets and strikes he will freeze up and lose the advantage. Chain punching builds the offensive flow. Lat sau and chi sau build the ability to automatically use the correct technique at the correct time. Sparring helps you put it all together and test it under pressure.

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

Thank you for the in-depth reply. I have another question however. What is the purpose of the shin connection? I thought one of the defining characteristics of lat sau was "no bridge"? Am I mis-understanding?

Also the chain punching, what is being worked here? Are we learning how to effectively chain punch in this drill? and work off the chain punch? I ask because the Wing Chun that I play doesn't really use the "chain punch" per se... as we tend to use it more as a drill.

Jeez louise dudesky, you ask AWESOME questions. You get my mind thinking about stuff I haven't thought about in years! So first off, thank you for asking REALLY good questions!!!

Ok first off, the shin connection: This can be looked at in a few different ways. In WT, we are always trying to make the situation the most advantageous we can to us. So when you are doing lat-sau (HK) and you step in, if you cannot put your foot straight inbetween your opponents center line (right between his feet) you want to go shin/shin so as to nullify his leg techniques. You learn about this more and more as you advance higher and higher. Alot of these concepts are hidden in the dummy, where you come to understand what is called "Chi-Gerk" or sticky leg. It is something I don't often talk about because most people I know in WT just aren't there and the conecepts are very easy to understand, but they have a lot of depth. The other reason to keep your shin/shin contact in German Lat-sau is because you are always training your stance to be good. Both partners are in their front stance, where you are keeping 100% of your weight on you back leg. This is not to say i'm "floating my front leg; There is weight on the front leg, but it is "dead weight" in other words I am putting no pressure on my front leg so it is easier to move and my opponent can't sweep it. There are footwork drills (Huen bo or "circling steps") that you practice in German Lat-sau, and there are chi-gerk programs for it. But in Leung Ting Wing Tsun, you used to have to be a 4th technician or above to work chi-gerk. So it is considered quite advanced material. It got reduced to 2nd technician material in the last few years, but currently I don't know where it is at, because I am no longer apart of that association.

And I'm not exactly sure how ya'll practice lat-sau, but in HK (Hong Kong) lat-sau, it is ALL about bridging the gap. You have to enter on your opponent, and you can't do that without creating a bridge. I really don't know what information you need for me to explain this, so if you could reply in (either in video or descriptive post) on what exactly you do for lat-sau, maybe I could give you a more sufficient answer ....

I think you are misunderstanding part of the key concepts, but you aren't too far off the beaten path, maybe you were just showed only some of Lat-sau. Chain punching is not really the point of any lat-sau drill. Chain punching is what you learn your first week, and you keep practicing this throughout your entire WT learning experience. On of the main things you learn in Lat-sau is TIMING. In german lat-sau (shin/shin) you are learning to deal with different attacks and the first thing you learn is the "off-speed-punch", where your opponent does the cycle and then quickly pak-da's (pak-sau's and then has a very quick punch right behind it). Timing is everything in Lat-sau, it is the main focus. But in chi-sau we learn to feel. So combining timing and feeling, we are at the quite advantageous position in WT.

And thunder, I believe you are a JKD practitioner no? If so, your stance wouldn't allow for some of our techniques, you work out of a SPBkS or "Small Phasic Bent Knee Stance" for all our non-JKD-speaking people who view this thread. In JKD ya'll, we put most of our weight on our front leg, and our back foot has the heel raised off the ground so (fencing stance) so as to give us a very easy method of bursting forward with our stance, and this also allows us to lean back on our heel when someone throws a deep punch at us. So some of the techniques we use in WT literally can't be executed just based on your stance alone. All of the techniques you would learn in HK lat-sau would have to deal with the hands, you can't practice chi-gerk and the footwork drills at all based on the fact that your front leg bears most of your weight, which is a big no-no in traditional WC/WT, but this doesn't mean you can't enjoy or train lat-sau, it just means you have to modify how you use this. God, I would love to train with you sometime and show you what I'm talking about, I think if you learnt traditional WT lat-sau you would have a great time and would really enjoy the material and it would help you understand on a whole new and exiting level when coupled with JKD.

I hope that was a good answer, but please feel free to question it more, I don't have all the answers, I'll be honest, but I do have some good knowledge.

All the best, and thanks for the outstanding questions man!

Jeff

 

[yak sao]

Well said Yak. So many people don't get this. They rag on 'Chun for all the "mindless" chain punching. They don't understand that chain punching and pursuing step is just a way of teaching how to unleash a continuous flow of aggressive techniques.

Later, as a student matures in his skills, he can maintain that same continuous offensive blitz while effectively varying his choice of techniques, targets, and timing. If a beginner tries to do the same thing, mentally selecting from a large menu of possible targets and strikes he will freeze up and lose the advantage. Chain punching builds the offensive flow. Lat sau and chi sau build the ability to automatically use the correct technique at the correct time. Sparring helps you put it all together and test it under pressure.

That is the genius of our system. The lat sau builds the assertiveness of pressing the attack, while the chi sau makes the arms/body become springlike so that it happens all on its own.
An advanced practitioner is coming at you from so many different angles. What is so amazing about it though, is it isn't our conscious choice to throw a particular strike or combination, our opponent chooses for himself how he is hit.

 

[Nabakatsu]

Wow.. 4th tech for chi gerk.. man do I love ebmas.. Emin brings down so much stuff to the lower levels..
We have small chi gerk at lvl 9, (12 student levels before first tech) we're supposed to be able to use all of the first section of chi sau with our chi gerk level. I hear the main purpose is to develop a higher degree of coordination, and of course an introduction into leg sensitivity.

 

[Nabakatsu]

Also, Jeff, excited to hear why/how your brand of WT doesn't couple with the shin on shin contact ect.. would love to hear any/all thoughts from a different version of WT.