Chi Sau - Can Different Styles/Branches Roll Together?

[dlcox]

I first learned MA from a Korean guy who taught all the terminology in Korean. It was very annoying to have to figure out how everything translated back into Chinese so I could communicate with others in the wider community who use the native language the style is taught in...



It's called free sparring... People should, in my opinion, look at chi-sau as a training stage and tool like the forms. That way they might realize there is a further stage for free fight training, and it's not chi-sau!

I use mandarin simply because that is what I'm used to and don't see a need to use cantonese, sorry if it confuses anyone.

I agree with you and KPM here that Chi Shou is not the standard by which Yong Chun prowess or ability should be judged, free sparring should be the only standard as it is the most realistic approach. I'm simply stating, in my round about way, that I think for Chi Shou to be more effective it needs to be adapted and modified to the free sparring realm. What I mean by this is to be more lax on the "rules" of contact and structure typically employed by traditional Yong Chun practitioners, many may disagree with me, but until someone can effectively employ the typical Chi Shou platform against me under heavy duress I will not be convinced of it's practicality. There are IMO better practices that essentially strive to achieve the same goal. I have never cared about trying to conform to concepts that are counter productive to what I am trying to achieve when it comes to conflict, I will use whatever gives me results. Some may believe that this is not traditional but I don't care, I care about what is effective for me and yields higher percentage results, don't care what it looks like. Concepts are not bound by technique, Yong Chun for me is concept driven not technique driven. Again no one has to agree with my view, I'm not trying to convince anyone my way is better, just stating my point of view based upon my understanding and my experience no one else's.

 

[LFJ]

I agree with you and KPM here that Chi Shou is not the standard by which Yong Chun prowess or ability should be judged, free sparring should be the only standard as it is the most realistic approach. I'm simply stating, in my round about way, that I think for Chi Shou to be more effective it needs to be adapted and modified to the free sparring realm. What I mean by this is to be more lax on the "rules" of contact and structure typically employed by traditional Yong Chun practitioners, many may disagree with me, but until someone can effectively employ the typical Chi Shou platform against me under heavy duress I will not be convinced of it's practicality.

I'm confused by the way you speak of chi-sau and its "realism", "effectiveness", and "practicality" or lack thereof.

Its effectiveness and practicality depend on your objective in training it. If it's in relation to "realism" as compared to free sparring or actual fighting, I think you're misunderstanding the role of chi-sau.

It's an effective and practical exercise as a training stage and tool for developing things like punching power, structure, balance, coordination, distance, timing, reflexes, etc. and for correcting errors in these that get forced out under pressure in sparring and fighting. WSL kept a blackboard in the training hall that had everyone's names on it and what they had to work on. So-and-so: Bad wu-sau, for example. These things they'd have to improve through chi-sau drilling and incremental pressure testing through gwoh-sau, free sparring, and actually fighting, if they were so inclined.

It's important that chi-sau remains its own training stage and free sparring be done separately. To adapt and mix the two is absurd. If you're looking for it to be "effective" and "practical" when someone keeps to the standard chi-sau structure while you give them "heavy duress", attacking them like you're free sparring, then you have indeed misunderstood its role in the training cycle entirely!

Chi-sau is where I'm usually working to improve something specific in a controlled manner, even when it's free flowing, like training with the wooden dummy to fix my own positions, not fight anyone. Fighting me all out in chi-sau would be like attacking me while I'm training on the dummy. Only a nut would do that, or someone who just doesn't understand what I'm trying to do at this stage in training.

 

[dlcox]

I'm confused by the way you speak of chi-sau and its "realism", "effectiveness", and "practicality" or lack thereof.

Its effectiveness and practicality depend on your objective in training it. If it's in relation to "realism" as compared to free sparring or actual fighting, I think you're misunderstanding the role of chi-sau.

It's an effective and practical exercise as a training stage and tool for developing things like punching power, structure, balance, coordination, distance, timing, reflexes, etc. and for correcting errors in these that get forced out under pressure in sparring and fighting. WSL kept a blackboard in the training hall that had everyone's names on it and what they had to work on. So-and-so: Bad wu-sau, for example. These things they'd have to improve through chi-sau drilling and incremental pressure testing through gwoh-sau, free sparring, and actually fighting, if they were so inclined.

It's important that chi-sau remains its own training stage and free sparring be done separately. To adapt and mix the two is absurd. If you're looking for it to be "effective" and "practical" when someone keeps to the standard chi-sau structure while you give them "heavy duress", attacking them like you're free sparring, then you have indeed misunderstood its role in the training cycle entirely!

Chi-sau is where I'm usually working to improve something specific in a controlled manner, even when it's free flowing, like training with the wooden dummy to fix my own positions, not fight anyone. Fighting me all out in chi-sau would be like attacking me while I'm training on the dummy. Only a nut would do that, or someone who just doesn't understand what I'm trying to do at this stage in training.

I understand your position clearly, perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could have been. I generally agree with your assessment. I don't want to diverge any further from th op than already has been. In short I believe that one's time is better spent on specific drilling and sparring as compared to Chi Shou. IMO too many focus too much on chasing mastery in Chi Shou and not enough on, what are IMO, more practical approaches to realistic practice. With that I won't argue any further, just my 2 cents, no one has to agree, sorry for all the fuss.

 

[geezer]

IMO too many focus too much on chasing mastery in Chi Shou and not enough on, what are IMO, more practical approaches to realistic practice.

On one hand I agree with you, KPM and LFJ on this point. On the other hand, I enjoy the chi-sau game, and would like to become better at it. The important thing is to keep it in perspective. Kind of like a guy at the boxing gym who can do all kinds of tricks with a jump rope and on the speed bag. It's fun, but nobody pretends that it's a substitute for sparring. After a certain age you might prefer to train the fun stuff, do less sparring and when you do spar, keep it very light. But you are honest with yourself and know that this isn't everything you need for fighting.

I think what people object to most about some of us in WC is that we are not really honest about our limitations. To me that shows a lack of confidence in our strengths. A confident person can admit his shortcomings.

 

[Danny T]

I think what people object to most about some of us in WC is that we are not really honest about out limitations.

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There are those who understand their limitations but won't admit it, worse is those who don't understand their limitations because they have not pressure tested themselves but go about as experts. The same could be said of many in the other arts as well.... Then there are those who not only don't pressure test but don't ask questions simply accept whatever they are told and never prove it for themselves. And yes we have a lot of that in all of the WC families.

 

[KPM]

I think what people object to most about some of us in WC is that we are not really honest about out limitations. To me that shows a lack of confidence in our strengths. A confident person can admit his shortcomings.

This is true. I'm also beginning to realize that one of the things people object to about WC and "classical" martial arts in general is that when they are seen sparring or fighting they look nothing like they do when training.

 

[Thunder Foot]

Chi sau with other schools in my opinion should be a natural thing. All too often we have these separatist views of Martial Arts, let alone Wing Chun whereby its not encouraged to understand it in its entirety. There are so many ways to chi sau just as there is to spar, so why not enjoy the experience. Its just but one tool in the arsenal of free fighting and an extension of our Wing Chun principle Loi lau hoi sung, etc... I say don't limit ourselves and learn all we can.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Chi sau with other schools in my opinion should be a natural thing. All too often we have these separatist views of Martial Arts, let alone Wing Chun whereby its not encouraged to understand it in its entirety. There are so many ways to chi sau just as there is to spar, so why not enjoy the experience. Its just but one tool in the arsenal of free fighting and an extension of our Wing Chun principle Loi lau hoi sung, etc... I say don't limit ourselves and learn all we can.

Exactly.

Only do things within your given style or given lineage and you could be in for a surprise when you find yourself outside of it.

 

[Vajramusti]

Exactly.

Only do things within your given style or given lineage and you could be in for a surprise when you find yourself outside of it.

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Agree.

 

[Pat M]

My view is that Chi Sau between different families or styles is possible depending on the approach of the practitioners. We are so lucky to have something as universal and transferable as Chi Sau, it is not combat; though can become a partial bridge between technique reflex and sensitivity training and combat. Ensuring no ego what so ever enters into your training will ensure Chi Sau remains that bridge as if you can not play well together you will no longer want to!

Entering into Chi Sau with other schools keeping a welcoming yet on guard approach will be doing your best in being able to share and grow within the Wing Chun family. Some travel to experience this is a great part of your journey.

 

[BTrent]

The Wong Hon Fun lineage of 7 Star Mantis has been practicing Chi Sau with Wing Chun practioners since Hong Kong. We use mantis techniques on the wooden dummy. Hong Kong was a wonderful melting pot.

Here is a video I took of my then Si-Hing now Sifu at a tournament in NC.

 

[Pat M]

The Wong Hon Fun lineage of 7 Star Mantis has been practicing Chi Sau with Wing Chun practioners since Hong Kong. We use mantis techniques on the wooden dummy. Hong Kong was a wonderful melting pot.

Here is a video I took of my then Si-Hing now Sifu at a tournament in NC.

Note the smile on the face of the guy in the white shirt at times. This is the approch required. nice video.