Chi Sau - Can Different Styles/Branches Roll Together?

[Hong Kong Pooey]

So this other thread http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/63-wing-chun/116620-regarding-diverse-approaches-wc.html threw up something I found interesting - post 11 onward - and rather than derail it I thought I'd start a new one.

To put it very simply, my understanding was that the aim of Chi-Sau is to train you to be able to clear your opponents hands/arms if they are out in front in order to strike them (or unbalance, trip, etc), so when some people opined that in their experience it doesn't work when 2 practitioners of different styles meet I was rather surprised.

If one person easily defeats the other then for the defeated to claim it's because the victor was doing it 'wrong' seems rather hollow to me.

What are your thoughts & experiences?

As stated in the other thread I'm still very much a learner and haven't got as far as full chi-sau yet so if my understanding is wrong please advise why. Thanks!

 

[Kwan Sau]

...my understanding was that the aim of Chi-Sau is to...

different wing chun families/lineages have different ideas in mind when they train chi sau. Some think it is "fighting". Some think its a game of patty-cake. Some think it is the heart/soul/bread/butter of WC. Others start with a "roll" but quickly add intense speed and aggression to overbear their "training partner" in order to get their patty-cake slaps in... And some people can't seem to make up their minds whether or not they want to "roll" in chi sau...or disengage and start "sparring".

 

[yak sao]

I've rolled with others from different lineages and I had no problem being able to mesh with them.
And while I agree with LFJ that chi sau is about development, that's only one aspect because I also think that there are different areas of focus or at least levels of intensity when training chi sau.

Just like there are varying degrees of free sparring with a partner, everything from hands only or half speed all the way up to full out with headgear and gloves, chi sau can be approached the same way.

You can get together with someone from another lineage and roll without trying to bust their balls. If their energy is off or in a direction that you are not accustomed to, deal with it...that's kind of what chi sau is meant to do; teach you how to deal with various pressures placed upon the arms/body.

 

[Kwan Sau]

You can get together with someone from another lineage and roll without trying to bust their balls. If their energy is off or in a direction that you are not accustomed to, deal with it...that's kind of what chi sau is meant to do; teach you how to deal with various pressures placed upon the arms/body.

I agree...however sometimes pride and ego may creep in. Doesn't lend well to a friendly exchange...

 

[yak sao]

I agree...however sometimes pride and ego may creep in. Doesn't lend well to a friendly exchange...

Yep...but then that's a whole other topic.

 

[yak sao]

I agree...however sometimes pride and ego may creep in. Doesn't lend well to a friendly exchange...

I would go on to argue that that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's one thing to train with your kung fu brothers or your teacher. It's good to add a little stress to the mix from time to time to see how you fare under fire.

 

[geezer]

It's easier to roll with other people from other WC branches if you are a student rather than an instructor. Ever since I was forced by circumstances into instructing again, I have been reluctant to cross bridges with other groups. Too much ego involved. Theirs, ...and mine too. If they trounce me, I may not care, but it would look bad, word gets around and I'm sure I'd catch hell from my association. And that's a shame, because personally, I don't really give a rat's behind. I enjoy working with others, especially those more skilled than me. Even if they are with other groups.

Fortunately I am still a student in the DTE Eskrima group I train with. So I can spar and try things out, and nobody seems to mind when I do something stupid. In fact they've come to expect it! :lol:

 

[Takai]

You can get together with someone from another lineage and roll without trying to bust their balls. If their energy is off or in a direction that you are not accustomed to, deal with it...that's kind of what chi sau is meant to do; teach you how to deal with various pressures placed upon the arms/body.

I would have to agree with this. If you can only get your chi sao to work against someone in your own lineage then you haven't delved enough into what you are you should be learning.

 

[Marnetmar]

uhhhhhh

I'm not sure if I buy this. Unless you're attempting to turn CS into a game to beat other WC people (which unfortunately a lot of people seem to do) instead of an actual form of training, good structure is good structure, and if you get hit it's because you're doing something wrong. Period.

 

[yak sao]

if you get hit it's because you're doing something wrong. Period.

Exactly!

 

[yak sao]

It's easier to roll with other people from other WC branches if you are a student rather than an instructor. Ever since I was forced by circumstances into instructing again, I have been reluctant to cross bridges with other groups. Too much ego involved. Theirs, ...and mine too. If they trounce me, I may not care, but it would look bad, word gets around and I'm sure I'd catch hell from my association. And that's a shame, because personally, I don't really give a rat's behind. I enjoy working with others, especially those more skilled than me. Even if they are with other groups. :lol:

It does suck being the big fish in the small pond sometimes. I just want to get in there and mix it up...hell, that's how we learned in the first place and what got us to where we are. But now, for whatever reason, we're expected to be infallible and if we're not, then there's something wrong with us.

 

[LFJ]

Just like there are varying degrees of free sparring with a partner, everything from hands only or half speed all the way up to full out with headgear and gloves, chi sau can be approached the same way.

To an extent. There is a point where people take it too far, like chi-sau competitions where they gear up and try to fight each other in a very unrealistic way. Some people like that, but I think you should just free spar if you want real pressure in a more realistic way. Being able to hit someone from mutual pre-contact, doesn't mean you'll be able to do the same when they don't give you their arms. Some people even rely on that contact, because that's where they are comfortable, and they'll search for arms that aren't there in a real fight and get trounced.

that's kind of what chi sau is meant to do; teach you how to deal with various pressures placed upon the arms/body.

Maybe your chi-sau. For me, it's an abstract drilling format where from the beginning we are exchanging force to develop punching power and refine alignments. This requires force to be exchanged in a very specific way. Everything proliferates from there as we learn to sustain attacks through instinctive reactions to interrupted lines, without trying to feel for energies in our partner's arms and manipulate them with stickiness, because none of that happens in free fighting where there is no pre- or prolonged arm contact. No matter how fast we are going in chi-sau, we are still extending two arms equally in redundant arm contact using abstract shapes that won't be used in free fighting. So "fighting" from that position is really phony and will lead to a lot unrealistic theory based on pre- or prolonged arm contact.

 

[yak sao]

To an extent. There is a point where people take it too far, like chi-sau competitions where they gear up and try to fight each other in a very unrealistic way. Some people like that, but I think you should just free spar if you want real pressure in a more realistic way. Being able to hit someone from mutual pre-contact, doesn't mean you'll be able to do the same when they don't give you their arms. Some people even rely on that contact, because that's where they are comfortable, and they'll search for arms that aren't there in a real fight and get trounced.

I do see a lot of people get lost in the chi sau trap. They think good chi sau skills are all they need for effective fighting.
Equal time needs to be spent on closing the distance among other things.

What good are excellent chi sau skills if you get clocked by a right hook moving in to engage?

 

[yak sao]

Maybe your chi-sau. For me, it's an abstract drilling format where from the beginning we are exchanging force to develop punching power and refine alignments. This requires force to be exchanged in a very specific way. Everything proliferates from there as we learn to sustain attacks through instinctive reactions to interrupted lines....

We do this as well. But you need to be able to apply WC against non WC and WC other than your own lineage. Otherwise you are just practicing what my old sifu referred to as martial incest.

 

[LFJ]

We do this as well. But you need to be able to apply WC against non WC and WC other than your own lineage. Otherwise you are just practicing what my old sifu referred to as martial incest.

Ha, that's funny, and gross!

As I said in that other thread, chi-sau, like form practice, is part of my personal training, my private time to work on areas in my system and correct errors according to my system with this developmental tool specific also to my system. Foreign ideas don't have a place in that part of training. I have no interest playing chi-sau with people who have entirely different concepts of what we're doing. Chi-sau doesn't leave the training hall.

What goes out to meet practitioners of other systems or styles is free sparring/ fighting. As long as you're doing that, you should be good, and you're testing your skills in a more realistic way too. If someone can convince you freehanded, then maybe it's worth a look into how things are done in their system. Ironically, I've seen people who could do cool things in chi-sau but couldn't fight freehanded, without the mutual pre-contact. I'm not interested in that.

 

[LFJ]

I do see a lot of people get lost in the chi sau trap. They think good chi sau skills are all they need for effective fighting.
Equal time needs to be spent on closing the distance among other things.

What good are excellent chi sau skills if you get clocked by a right hook moving in to engage?

Exactly. Unfortunately, we also have people like that in our WSL lineage. Different branch of course. They say chi-sau is "VT sparring" and is all that is needed, because there's nothing more a person will learn by you really cracking them as opposed to instead pushing or placing punches to show them where their gaps are.

I think this is ludicrous. Not only does moving through different ranges need to be addressed and different fighting styles dealt with, but you can take a light hit or disturbance and think you're fine and keep doing lots of things and think you're improving. If you've never been hit hard, you have no idea how you're really going to react when attacked for real and it hurts and you see stars. All your chi-sau skills will fall apart, almost guaranteed. A huge importance in free sparring is the stress inoculation.

 

[geezer]

Ironically, I've seen people who could do cool things in chi-sau but couldn't fight freehanded, without the mutual pre-contact. I'm not interested in that.

What? Your objective isn't to become this guy? Contact juggling presented by National Geographic. [VIDEO]

 

[Cephalopod]

I'm a big believer in rolling with chunners from other schools and I grab every opportunity I can to do so.

I think we're blessed to have a platform, even an imperfect one, by which we can travel to any corner of the world, meet another WC/VT practitioner with a completely different outlook from your own, and test his skills and your own. Boxers have a platform, they can get in a ring anywhere in the world, BJJ'ers can get down on the mat. In these cases it will be very clear who the victor is. I see chisao (or gorsao or latsao) as being a way to measure skill not quantitatively but qualitatively. After a minute of rolling, I may have no idea who would be 'the last man standing' but that's really not the point. I will have had an opportunity to feel the practitioners skills and that might give me some food for thought.

Thus far, meeting up with other chunners, I've run into all sorts of situations. Some were way more skilled than I, some decidedly my junior. Some liked to root and be stationary others would float around. Some liked to hit hard, other threw kicks into their chisao... you get the idea. In all cases, I've walked away with something to think about. Sure, sometimes it had to do with improving my chisao skills for their own sake. But usually it was a consequence of the way the other practitioner was less predictable that the guys who I train with every week.

Something tells me that training to deal with unpredictability can't be bad for me!

The nice thing about chisao is that I can do this without lugging around a workout bag full of gear.
And, on top of that, because I'm not too much of a douchbag, I often make good friends along the way

 

[Vajramusti]

I'm a big believer in rolling with chunners from other schools and I grab every opportunity I can to do so.

I think we're blessed to have a platform, even an imperfect one, by which we can travel to any corner of the world, meet another WC/VT practitioner with a completely different outlook from your own, and test his skills and your own. Boxers have a platform, they can get in a ring anywhere in the world, BJJ'ers can get down on the mat. In these cases it will be very clear who the victor is. I see chisao (or gorsao or latsao) as being a way to measure skill not quantitatively but qualitatively. After a minute of rolling, I may have no idea who would be 'the last man standing' but that's really not the point. I will have had an opportunity to feel the practitioners skills and that might give me some food for thought.

Thus far, meeting up with other chunners, I've run into all sorts of situations. Some were way more skilled than I, some decidedly my junior. Some liked to root and be stationary others would float around. Some liked to hit hard, other threw kicks into their chisao... you get the idea. In all cases, I've walked away with something to think about. Sure, sometimes it had to do with improving my chisao skills for their own sake. But usually it was a consequence of the way the other practitioner was less predictable that the guys who I train with every week.

Something tells me that training to deal with unpredictability can't be bad for me!

The nice thing about chisao is that I can do this without lugging around a workout bag full of gear.
And, on top of that, because I'm not too much of a douchbag, I often make good friends along the way

----------------------------------------------------
good post.

 

[KPM]

I think we're blessed to have a platform, even an imperfect one, by which we can travel to any corner of the world, meet another WC/VT practitioner with a completely different outlook from your own, and test his skills and your own.

Well, I think this attitude or perspective is a problem. Too many people look at Chi Sau as if it was the litmus test of Wing Chun fighting ability. Its not. Why wouldn't the platform used to test skills between Wing Chun people be friendly sparring...just as for boxers? Or rather Gor Sau with some protective equipment, if you want to look at it that way? Don't we think of Wing Chun as a form of "Chinese Boxing"? I think for many schools too much time and emphasis in put on Chi Sau, and that's why they can't spar or fight effectively. I agree with LFJ on this one.