Chi Sao- Crossing the bridge

[mook jong man]

I like the move at 4.54 that he uses his right arm to "jam"' both of his opponent's arms at the same time. If you can do that to your opponent, you will have one free hand to punch on his face.

That's a pretty stock standard trap in most Wing Chun I would say , you just rotate the Bong Sau around their Fook Sau to collapse it then pin their other hand.

 

[PiedmontChun]

I've watched a few times and seem to be missing exactly how his Bong Sau ends up on TOP of the opponent's Fook Sau at 4:54 to perform that pinning action Kung Fu Wang pointed out. Wouldn't this require dis-engaging from the starting position of Bong Sau being below the Fook Sau?
This is not a criticism at all, just a newb question.

 

[mook jong man]

I've watched a few times and seem to be missing exactly how his Bong Sau ends up on TOP of the opponent's Fook Sau at 4:54 to perform that pinning action Kung Fu Wang pointed out. Wouldn't this require dis-engaging from the starting position of Bong Sau being below the Fook Sau?
This is not a criticism at all, just a newb question.

No , it doesn't require disengaging.

It is a little bit confusing for you because the opponent is the one initiating the attack and Futsao is using it to counter.
But this particular trap can also be used as an attack all by itself.

Imagine you are rolling away , as you get into Bong Sau , you let your angle collapse a little in your Bong Sau and bring your elbow over to the centerline. (this can also be an elbow strike).

The elbow rotates around his Fook Sau pushing it sideways and pinning it , making sure to keep your elbow high so that his Fook Sau stays trapped , your same hand then goes down and pins his Tan Sau.
You then strike with your free hand.

You can use it by stepping in , you can use it by pivoting or you can use it as Futsao has done and let the opponent initiate an attack and come to you.

Does that help make it a bit clearer?

 

[wtxs]

No , it doesn't require disengaging.

It is a little bit confusing for you because the opponent is the one initiating the attack and Futsao is using it to counter.
But this particular trap can also be used as an attack all by itself.

Imagine you are rolling away , as you get into Bong Sau , you let your angle collapse a little in your Bong Sau and bring your elbow over to the centerline. (this can also be an elbow strike).

The elbow rotates around his Fook Sau pushing it sideways and pinning it , making sure to keep your elbow high so that his Fook Sau stays trapped , your same hand then goes down and pins his Tan Sau.
You then strike with your free hand.

You can use it by stepping in , you can use it by pivoting or you can use it as Futsao has done and let the opponent initiate an attack and come to you.

Does that help make it a bit clearer?

Mook, hope you don't mind me piggy back on to what you've wrote about the elbow usage. In training the "trapping" aspect of Chi Sao, we also employ the elbow strike like you had suggested.

Since one of the WC concept/principle is about economy of motion, the lower arm whips up with an back fist or open back hand into the face which is coming forward from the elbow strike into the chest (if that's the target), without disengagement of the other hand, and still give you the option of "chain" the counter attack as with your cross pin/trap ... just one of the way we do it, and yes I'm well aware that "main" stream WC has no back fist in their bag.

 

[PiedmontChun]

No , it doesn't require disengaging.

It is a little bit confusing for you because the opponent is the one initiating the attack and Futsao is using it to counter.
But this particular trap can also be used as an attack all by itself.

Imagine you are rolling away , as you get into Bong Sau , you let your angle collapse a little in your Bong Sau and bring your elbow over to the centerline. (this can also be an elbow strike).

The elbow rotates around his Fook Sau pushing it sideways and pinning it , making sure to keep your elbow high so that his Fook Sau stays trapped , your same hand then goes down and pins his Tan Sau.
You then strike with your free hand.

You can use it by stepping in , you can use it by pivoting or you can use it as Futsao has done and let the opponent initiate an attack and come to you.

Does that help make it a bit clearer?

Ah ha, that was a "lightbulb" moment, makes sense now. Thanks Mook. Now that I realize what he is doing, it reminds me of a movement my Sifu had used before when someone tried to Pak Sau or trap his only free hand. He would step in further bringing the elbow around the Pak Sau to then swing the forearm over and down on the clavicle area. I have no idea what that is called but it looked cool as heck, going around an obstacle when you can't go thru it.

 

[mook jong man]

Mook, hope you don't mind me piggy back on to what you've wrote about the elbow usage. In training the "trapping" aspect of Chi Sao, we also employ the elbow strike like you had suggested.

Since one of the WC concept/principle is about economy of motion, the lower arm whips up with an back fist or open back hand into the face which is coming forward from the elbow strike into the chest (if that's the target), without disengagement of the other hand, and still give you the option of "chain" the counter attack as with your cross pin/trap ... just one of the way we do it, and yes I'm well aware that "main" stream WC has no back fist in their bag.

Well after that initial pin with the elbow you can do pretty much anything you want.

One of my instructors was quite fond of bringing the elbow over the Fook Sau and dropping it down really fast so that your head was quite violently dragged down , and then with the same hand he would give you an uppercut under the chin.
After almost biting my own tongue off I learned the value the value of keeping your mouth shut when performing chi sau lol.

 

[futsaowingchun]

I like the move at 4.54 that he uses his right arm to "jam"' both of his opponent's arms at the same time. If you can do that to your opponent, you will have one free hand to punch on his face.

This is called one hand controls two.

 

[futsaowingchun]

A thing to remember is there is no one perfect move. many different possible actions can be taken. Use simple easy and direct that's the way to do it.

if your hand gets trapped inside his bicep there could be a possibility of getting your arm broken at the elbow joint.

My hand wont get trapped as I have control my partner does not. I can move at will and he can not. It's very difficult to try to explain chi sao like this. the best was is to simply just chi sao together. All these ideas have alraedy have been thought of and there is an answer to. I also know Ip man Wing Chun very well. I trained under Sifu Moy yat and sifu Lee Moy Shan of NYC among others..So I know both systems very well. Wing Chun is Wing Chun.

But since your lineage does these bicep jamming techniques , I would be interested in knowing what counters have evolved to deal with them.​

Its not a bicep jam its an elbow joint jam.Think of it like a gum sao,but instead of pinning against the body control the joint which is much better. In Fut Sao controling the joints is very important.if you can control the joints the person is helpless. SLT- control wrist,elbow,shoulder joints CK- control-hip,knee,ancle BJ- control- neck-and whole spine . ( I know the spine is not a joint like a ball and socket but its moves and therefore can be controled

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

In fixed step push hands we use what I call the elbow pit jam as well. You can disrupt the balance of your opponent easily by jamming his elbows behind him essentially arching & locking his spine.

If you do this to both elbows and add a shuffle it usually causes the opponent to step off balance at least one step and it gets you a point. Its very effective in push hands but is done differently.

 

[futsaowingchun]

Ok just watched the parts you specified , after you have jammed the bicep what would be his counter to that , in your lineage?
Off the top of my head , in our lineage we would probably pivot and roll in to a low bong sau , if your hand gets trapped inside his bicep there could be a possibility of getting your arm broken at the elbow joint.

The other counter might be what we call a "reverse'' Tan Sau , do you have that in your lineage?
Basically , unlike your normal Tan Sau which goes forward , this Tan Sau goes backward due to pivoting , think of rolling with both your arms one in Bong , and the other in Tan.

On the Tan Sau side you pivot back , that is the "reverse'' Tan Sau.

It's used to break the opponents structure by causing a dual , pushing /pulling force , he gets dragged in by the Tan Sau on one side and his structure is left compromised on the other and vulnerable to collapse.
This would also counter the bicep jam.

But since your lineage does these bicep jamming techniques , I would be interested in knowing what counters have evolved to deal with them.

Off the top of my head , in our lineage we would probably pivot and roll in to a low bong sau

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I just wanted to add something to your comment.In the Fut Sut lineage we has a say which explains why I did the jamming technique instead of the low Bong Sao,the move you would have done." when we are on top of the opponents bridge we stay on their bridge" to us this is a superior position,and to go to a bong sao would put you in a inferior position.

 

[wtxs]

The other counter might be what we call a "reverse'' Tan Sau , do you have that in your lineage?
Basically , unlike your normal Tan Sau which goes forward , this Tan Sau goes backward due to pivoting , think of rolling with both your arms one in Bong , and the other in Tan.

In the same instant, quick counter pivot rotation sends the Tan forward as an cutting palm, Biu, punch, etc.


[/QUOTE]But since your lineage does these bicep jamming techniques , I would be interested in knowing what counters have evolved to deal with them.[/QUOTE] (Sorry, haven't figure out how to split the quoted text)

Try rotating the elbow slightly down and in towards your center, which would bring your forearm and hand positioning onto his center ... now you MAY have an clear path to do whatever counters ...

The suggested solutions are based on using the same arm that is being controlled. Don't forget you still have the usage of the other side.