Chi Sao- Crossing the bridge

[futsaowingchun]

Buddha Hand Wing Chun main Chi Sao Concept called " Snake creeping up the bamboo" First time made available to the public..

 

[Marnetmar]

I would think grabbing the opponent's pak sau would simply cause him to switch over to tan sau, and coming closer to the opponent with a tan sau wouldn't really work if his fok sau was in a more proper position. Stepping around the guy, especially while taking two steps, does not seem like a good idea either.

 

[mook jong man]

If the small guy had decent forward force you would already be hit as soon as you left his wrist.

Against somebody with no forward force , you can pretty much make anything work.

Even if you did manage to get to his elbow , the easiest and most simple counter is for him to just sink his elbow into Tan Sau and your lateral force on his elbow gets redirected down to the ground.

This stuff is only going to work against people who try to fight against force and don't know anything.

 

[Kwan Sau]

If the small guy had decent forward force you would already be hit as soon as you left his wrist.

Against somebody with no forward force , you can pretty much make anything work.

Yup. mook jong man beat me to this response! In 99% of the wing chun out there...if you look closely, the situation is the same within these chi sau demonstrations, etc. Anyone who actually follows WC principles would have landed a strike.

 

[wingchun100]

It's all about the forward intention, baby.

 

[wingchun100]

By the way...first time made available to the public? I am cautious of ANYONE who claims they are harboring one of those mystical, mythical "ancient Chinese secrets."

 

[JPinAZ]

If the small guy had decent forward force you would already be hit as soon as you left his wrist.

Against somebody with no forward force , you can pretty much make anything work.

Even if you did manage to get to his elbow , the easiest and most simple counter is for him to just sink his elbow into Tan Sau and your lateral force on his elbow gets redirected down to the ground.

This stuff is only going to work against people who try to fight against force and don't know anything.

People view chi sau many different ways and as many different things, but I agree with 'mook here - regardless how you view it, you can't argue with basic geometry & physics. Well, you can try, but arguing with a science seems a bit counter productive

 

[geezer]

If the small guy had decent forward force you would already be hit as soon as you left his wrist.

Against somebody with no forward force , you can pretty much make anything work.

Even if you did manage to get to his elbow , the easiest and most simple counter is for him to just sink his elbow into Tan Sau and your lateral force on his elbow gets redirected down to the ground.

This stuff is only going to work against people who try to fight against force and don't know anything.

Actually Mook, the concept of changing your angle (side-stepping or better, just by turning and shifting your center laterally) and slipping your fook-ing hand hand forward to control the elbow can work very well against a partner with excessive forward pressure.

There are a lot of variations of this technique, but in all you essentially, shift your center laterally, release your stick (while still retaining contact) and let his arm shoot forward, allowing your hand to move up his arm on centerline forcing it across his body. Then you can strike freely with the other hand. Moving the hand forward up your opponent's arm can be facilitated with a gripping or lap-ing movement that helps straighten your opponent's arm so you can slide up it like a rail. See the videoclip of my former sifu below:

And, yes Mook, it is easy to obstruct or counter this movement if you are aware and ready. Still, it is part of one of the basic chi-sau sequences we train because it teaches a lot of movement concepts stressed in our lineage.

 

[mook jong man]

Actually Mook, the concept of changing your angle (side-stepping or better, just by turning and shifting your center laterally) and slipping your fook-ing hand hand forward to control the elbow can work very well against a partner with excessive forward pressure.

There are a lot of variations of this technique, but in all you essentially, shift your center laterally, release your stick (while still retaining contact) and let his arm shoot forward, allowing your hand to move up his arm on centerline forcing it across his body. Then you can strike freely with the other hand. Moving the hand forward up your opponent's arm can be facilitated with a gripping or lap-ing movement that helps straighten your opponent's arm so you can slide up it like a rail. See the videoclip of my former sifu below:

And, yes Mook, it is easy to obstruct or counter this movement if you are aware and ready. Still, it is part of one of the basic chi-sau sequences we train because it teaches a lot of movement concepts stressed in our lineage.

It can work , just not the way it is done in the O.P
In my version I step 45 degrees to the side and at the same time grab their wrist and parry the elbow with the other hand , in a sort of two handed arm drag type thing.
Then hit them , or clothes line them as they come flying past.

This is very effective , but even with this , after a few times they begin to wake up and start sinking the elbow and pivoting back into you making it impossible to pull off.

 

[futsaowingchun]

as i mentioned in the video this is not about application but using the concept and then using it anyway you like..

 

[futsaowingchun]

I have used this agaist all kinds of forward force the results are the same. its like saying if i use foreword force on your tan sao it would collapse. it depends. its all in the timing which you dont see.if my opponent moves first he i can move anywhere i want on his bridge..

 

[futsaowingchun]

this is the first time available to the public...prove me wrong?? BTW no mystical, ancient chinese secret..did I say it was??

 

[Marnetmar]

One of the problems with the whole "first time available to the public" thing is that it forgets the idea that WC is concept based, rather than technique based. I'd think other WC guys could perform the same techniques you're showing without knowledge of Fut Sao provided that the opponent's structure (or lack thereof depending on how you look at it) allowed for it.

 

[mook jong man]

I have used this agaist all kinds of forward force the results are the same. its like saying if i use foreword force on your tan sao it would collapse. it depends. its all in the timing which you dont see.if my opponent moves first he i can move anywhere i want on his bridge..

Well it's not quite as simple as just having forward force.
Its how that forward force is utilized.

In the video the small guy stays in Bong Sau making it easy for you as you creep up his arm.
In my lineage that loss of wrist contact would result in dropping straight back into Tan Sau and hitting through.

All it needs is a slight deviation of the wrist off centerline and they will open up that gap like a crack in a wall.

 

[drop bear]

I assume this is a trick that helps your game not the one thing that breaks chi sau.

Of course you can counter it.

You guys approach this concept in a really weird way.

 

[geezer]

I assume this is a trick that helps your game not the one thing that breaks chi sau.

Of course you can counter it.

You guys approach this concept in a really weird way.

Absolutely. And, yes, Wing Chun people tend to be really weird.


Drop-- of course,all chi sau is just energy training. Your game is what you can do with that training when you apply it!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In WC Chi Shou, what will be your 1st reaction if your opponent grabs your wrist?

 

[Kwan Sau]

In WC Chi Shou, what will be your 1st reaction if your opponent grabs your wrist?

Depends on the grab, where it is exactly, what direction, if any, it is pushing or pulling my wrist, how much exertion it has, etc. Your question is kinda open-ended and liable to get a wide variety of responses. Care to give any more details?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Depends on the grab, where it is exactly, what direction, if any, it is pushing or pulling my wrist, how much exertion it has, etc. Your question is kinda open-ended and liable to get a wide variety of responses. Care to give any more details?

How about just a simple "right hand grabs on the right wrist". Your opponent then tries to pull your body into him (or to use the counter force to pull his body into you). It's a method to move in from a long range into a medium range. When he pulls, his punch also comes toward your face.

This is a good example of "cross the bridge". This will also break the Chi Shou format. Now your arm and your opponent's arm are no longer "stick/glue" together but "hook" together.

 

[Kwan Sau]

How about just a simple "right hand grabs on the right wrist". Your opponent then tries to pull your body into him (or to use the counter force to pull his body into you). It's a method to move in from a long range into a medium range. When he pulls, his punch also comes toward your face.

Well, it is difficult to answer without being there and actually having you try this on me...but based solely on what you have typed, I can tell you that basic WC principes would tell me/my body/limbs to move forward as you pull. As the punch enters into range, I would most likely jam it. I know that sounds vague but these sort of discussions are difficult via a forum.
Thanks.