Most of the older Kata rely on a drawing back of the passive hand. This hand could draw back to the hip in some styles, or parallel along the ribs. What importance do you place on this Chambering
Chambering hand
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Chamber only as far as you are comfortable with. It takes a lot of stretching to have untense motion wile cocked to far back.
Sean
Every person needs to get to the point where they are comfitable.
Empty Hands
Senior Master
In actual fighting, no importance at all. Chambering your off hand is a great way to get hit.
This is so true, I cannot recall at any point where I chamber my hard even in sparring.
OP
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- #6
This is definitely an excellent point. Chambering back to far will raise the elbow and in turn cause the shoulder to come out of proper structure.
OP
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- #7
Are there other reasons for the chamber? I know every kata in my art, chambers, but as you say, never in sparring. Since we dont use it in combat, is it useless?
One use is that you can pull back with it, an arm, hand jacket etc while punching with the other hand, Iain Abernethy goes into great detail about what you can do with the hand thats pulled back.
It depends on what you're doing with that other hand. We've got a number of uses and purposes (such as clearing/protecting before striking & grabbing) for the second hand. While the basic appearance is the big motion -- in function, it can change, condense, or move to different areas.
OP
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- #10
Good point Tez3. I teach that the boring chamber, that I have done for 1000s and 1000s of times, over the years, actually has many meanings. What would appear to be a simple move, could in fact be a very important one within grappling, which in turn would take a seemingly bunkai less punch, block, kick style, and open up a whole new art within an art. Thoughts??
OP
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- #11
What opened me up to this chamber move years ago was while doing a one arm take down. While grabbing the opponents wrist, and chambering your own hand, his elbow turns up and in position for the strike behind his elbow, and down he goes.
What you are training is muscle memory. The strongest part of our body is our centre. If we lift something heavy we hold it in close. Similarly if you hold someone's arm or gi and pull them in to you, your hand will likely end up close to 'carriage'.
Years ago we were taught that we could develop extra thrust by pulling the other shoulder back but I don't believe this. In fact by pulling the shoulder back we are actually reducing the power of our punch. We have our energy going backwards as well as forward.
As 'Tes3' quite rightly says, one of the applications is pulling your opponent towards you. This does three things. Firstly you are increasing the power of your strike by pulling your opponent into your strike, secondly the strike is more effective because your opponent's body can't move away from your strike and thirdly you know exactly where your opponent is to hit him again or restrain him, or use him as a shield against multiple attackers.
'Carriage' comes from the kata. This is why it is so important to develop knowledge of the application of our kata. This action of pulling the hand back is in the very first kata we learn, yet its meaning is rarely explained.
As was said by 'seasoned' we never use carriage in sparring. Quite right because most of our sparring is sport oriented, in and out quickly with a single, usually ineffective, strike. When sparring, we cover up with our hands as do all other fighters. It is only when we get stuck in for real that you will grab hold of your opponent and really try to cause damage.
As I said earlier, we are training muscle memory and that is worthy of another thread of its own.
I was always taught that the hand never goes back without something in it. This is one interpretation, that it is being used as a grab or pull. I've also heard of interpretations in which it is creating twist with the body...kind of a body mnemonic. Pull it back to create the proper hip position.
Empty Hands
Senior Master
I agree that anchoring your hand to your hip is useful in some circumstances such as pulling an opponent's arm. It is the first move in the entire B series of kenpo freestyle techniques, after all. However, I would argue that this move is separate from the chambering employed in (most) kata. Chambering in the kata is basically the default position of your currently passive hand. There is no inclusion of a strike/grab prior to the chamber, it is simply where the hand returns to when it is done striking. Done this way, chambering is very foolish. If there is another purpose to it, then that should be clear from the kata.
When I trained in Wado I was shown how to use it to pull a taller opponent down to strike them easier. I'm not tall and can't do sidekicks to any height but by pulling somedown by the wrist, I could place a sidekick right into their armpit or a knee to the face etc. You can hold the wrist, pull it into you and either 'gooseneck' them and flip them down ( sorry I can't think how to describe the move, you have the hand in a gooseneck, step your front foot to the back, 'pulling' the attacker down to the floor, you do a sort of curtsey movement.
I believe you can use hikite to do a Judo 'takedown' as well. I think far from being just pulling your hand back to make it look tidy it has a lot of uses.
I believe you can use hikite to do a Judo 'takedown' as well. I think far from being just pulling your hand back to make it look tidy it has a lot of uses.
Empty Hands
Senior Master
As you describe it, I agree. Unfortunately, these uses are not shown in the kata, at least the ones I have seen.
There applications are in EVERY goju kata and I can't believe they are not in the kata of at least every karate style. Maybe the applications are not being taught in your school.
OP
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- #18
I feel that if I had something very valuable, and I wanted to hide it so no one could find it, that would be very easy. The hard part would be for the person that tried to find it. I feel it is this way with kata. I can speak for Okinawan GoJu in that grabbing is a very big part of the solo kata. The thing is, you would not know it, by looking at the kata being preformed. I am going to assume that it is this way with other traditional arts as well.
Deaf Smith
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In the dojo I chamber it back in the traditional way. That is the art.
But in all other practice, I bring it up like a boxer. The other guy can pay you back for your punch, and thus to have the off hand and elbow cover is an asset.
You will also find you can still throw that reverse punch/ridge hand/backfist/shovel/uppercut quite fine with the fist at head hight to begin with.
It just won't look 'karate'.
Deaf
But in all other practice, I bring it up like a boxer. The other guy can pay you back for your punch, and thus to have the off hand and elbow cover is an asset.
You will also find you can still throw that reverse punch/ridge hand/backfist/shovel/uppercut quite fine with the fist at head hight to begin with.
It just won't look 'karate'.
Deaf
Empty Hands
Senior Master
Kata are (supposed to be) a training tool. What is the point of a training exercise that obscures what it is trying to teach? Mysticism? Convincing people to train and pay for something they don't understand for longer? If that is the purpose of the chamber, then that purpose should be made obvious. After all, chambering your hand as is traditionally practiced in the kata will look and feel different from a twisting/pulling/anchoring grab. Our own kata distinguish the two.
