Carry a gun??

Rich Parsons

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In Michigan it is 8 hours of training and a clear criminal history check. Personally I would like to see qutie a few more training hours logged.


While I agree with the training hours, I am glad the state of michigan switched from a shall prove state to shall issue state. Meaning that instead of proving why you need one, the state has to prove why you do not. of course I have over simplified the law and write up to my limited understanding.
 

KenpoTex

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While I agree with the training hours, I am glad the state of michigan switched from a shall prove state to shall issue state. Meaning that instead of proving why you need one, the state has to prove why you do not. of course I have over simplified the law and write up to my limited understanding.

You pretty much nailed it. The common terms are "may issue" and "shall issue."

In a "may issue" state (Cali, NY, etc.) you have to give a "good enough" reason as to why you need one. In many places this means you won't get one unless you're rich and/or politically connected. "For self-defense" is not a good enough reason most of the time...unless you're a liberal anti-gun politician (*cough*Feinstein*cough*)
In "shall issue" states, as long as you meet the requirements (no criminal background, etc.) they must issue you the permit.
 

Brian R. VanCise

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While I agree with the training hours, I am glad the state of michigan switched from a shall prove state to shall issue state. Meaning that instead of proving why you need one, the state has to prove why you do not. of course I have over simplified the law and write up to my limited understanding.


Hey Rich I am exactly with you there. I agree that the State should have to prove why you do not deserve one as like you or KenpoTex I am all for a persons right to bear arms. However I would like people to have to train more and qualify even if it is at a rudimentary level. I am also not against a short waiting period. Still in the end I am all for people's rights to bear arms and protect themselves and their families.
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I think it is a shame that there are a number of states where you cannot.
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Rich Parsons

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You pretty much nailed it. The common terms are "may issue" and "shall issue."

In a "may issue" state (Cali, NY, etc.) you have to give a "good enough" reason as to why you need one. In many places this means you won't get one unless you're rich and/or politically connected. "For self-defense" is not a good enough reason most of the time...unless you're a liberal anti-gun politician (*cough*Feinstein*cough*)
In "shall issue" states, as long as you meet the requirements (no criminal background, etc.) they must issue you the permit.

My Grandfather was able to get one in the state of NY.

There were two major factors in his favor.

He had AB- blood and had been a donor for years and on call, and had helped save some lives.

He fell from a tree (* Tree Surgeon *) and was paralyzed. He had the back history of being a person they could call at 3 AM to drive an hour to a hospital to give blood or be part of a transfusion. They say they issued it for his safety of being in a wheel chair or on his tractor when he was roaming the property. But, I believe his conenctions had as much to do with it.
 

elder999

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My Grandfather was able to get one in the state of NY.

There were two major factors in his favor.

He had AB- blood and had been a donor for years and on call, and had helped save some lives.

He fell from a tree (* Tree Surgeon *) and was paralyzed. He had the back history of being a person they could call at 3 AM to drive an hour to a hospital to give blood or be part of a transfusion. They say they issued it for his safety of being in a wheel chair or on his tractor when he was roaming the property. But, I believe his conenctions had as much to do with it.


Connections have a lot to do with it, as well as "security concerns," like if you're a diamond merchant or something of that nature, but the biggest factor is geography-the further north one goes in NY, the easier a CCW is to obtain-at least, that's the way it was when I lived there.
 

Rich Parsons

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Hey Rich I am exactly with you there. I agree that the State should have to prove why you do not deserve one as like you or KenpoTex I am all for a persons right to bear arms. However I would like people to have to train more and qualify even if it is at a rudimentary level. I am also not against a short waiting period. Still in the end I am all for people's rights to bear arms and protect themselves and their families.
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I think it is a shame that there are a number of states where you cannot.
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Brian as to your last sentence. I agree a lot. I was actually online with a friend on the phone asking about reciprocity from the State of Mi. Link here: http://www.michigan.gov/ag/0,1607,7-164-17334_17362_22672-60639--,00.html


Those that recognize Michigan issued permits are:

Alabama
Alaska
Arizona
Arkansas
Colorado
Delaware
Florida
Georgia
Idaho
Indiana
Kansas
Kentucky
Louisiana
Mississippi
Missouri
Minnesota
Montana
Nevada
New Hampshire
New Mexico
North Carolina
North Dakota
Ohio
Oklahoma
Pennsylvania
South Carolina
South Dakota
Tennessee
Texas
Utah
Vermont (does not require carry permits by residents or non residents)
Virginia
Washington
West Virginia
Wyoming


What I found interesting was that 14 states do not have an agreement.

Those states who do not recognize non resident permits are:

California
Connecticut
Hawaii
Illinois
Iowa
Maine
Maryland
Massachusetts
Nebraska
New Jersey
New York
Oregon
Rhode Island
Wisconsin

[I also checked Missouri for the guy on the phone and found almost the same lists.
Link here: http://ago.mo.gov/Concealed-Weapons/Concealed-Carry-Reciprocity-Missouri.htm

They have a nice chart that shows which states as well as the lists. They also call out states that do not have any issue policy at all.

States that do not issue endorsements to carry a concealed weapon

  • Illinois
  • Wisconsin

Note: Missouri has 13 with no recprocity and the two that have no issue at all for a total of 15. The state of Wyoming is the difference between the two. So do your own investigation for your own state to make sure of the details.

Also Note from the Michigan site linked above:

Some states allow for the application for a temporary CCW permit issued by that state or local unit of government. Others exempt law enforcement officers.​
So it might pay to ask for a temporary permit.​
Federal law expressly provides that persons may carry a firearm in their vehicles while traveling through another state provided that the possession of the weapon is legal in both the states of origin and destination and the weapon is unloaded and carried in the trunk of the vehicle or a locked container other than the glove box. See 18 U.S.C. 926a


A way to transport a firearm legally accoding to Federal Laws. But note that it must be legal in the state of initiation and the state of destination and the transporting should also be verified to make sure that nothing happens because of a missunderstanding.
 

takezo

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In CA, the whole discussion is academic because it is virtually impossible to get a concealed carry permit. Or more specifically, it is virtually impossible for the average non-criminal citizen to get a permit. If it were legal, I'd certainly carry a gun sometimes.

Not true - just depends if you live in one of those shrinking pockets of resistance that still exist within The People's Republic of California...
 

sjansen

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I have a concealed carry from Michigan and many of those in the class were not qualified by the instructor. Anyone who did not qualify was welcome to come to the range free of charge and practice until they did. I worked with my wife for about 20 hours until she could qualify. You have to not only hit the target at 7 yards, but also conceal reaload and hit the target again with 80% accuracy.

Remember that the cops are only minutes away when seconds count.
 

Brian R. VanCise

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Brian as to your last sentence. I agree a lot. I was actually online with a friend on the phone asking about reciprocity from the State of Mi. Link here: http://www.michigan.gov/ag/0,1607,7-164-17334_17362_22672-60639--,00.html


Those that recognize Michigan issued permits are:

Alabama
Alaska
Arizona
Arkansas
Colorado
Delaware
Florida
Georgia
Idaho
Indiana
Kansas
Kentucky
Louisiana
Mississippi
Missouri
Minnesota
Montana
Nevada
New Hampshire
New Mexico
North Carolina
North Dakota
Ohio
Oklahoma
Pennsylvania
South Carolina
South Dakota
Tennessee
Texas
Utah
Vermont (does not require carry permits by residents or non residents)
Virginia
Washington
West Virginia
Wyoming


What I found interesting was that 14 states do not have an agreement.

Those states who do not recognize non resident permits are:

California
Connecticut
Hawaii
Illinois
Iowa
Maine
Maryland
Massachusetts
Nebraska
New Jersey
New York
Oregon
Rhode Island
Wisconsin

[I also checked Missouri for the guy on the phone and found almost the same lists.
Link here: http://ago.mo.gov/Concealed-Weapons/Concealed-Carry-Reciprocity-Missouri.htm

They have a nice chart that shows which states as well as the lists. They also call out states that do not have any issue policy at all.

[/left]
So it might pay to ask for a temporary permit.​


A way to transport a firearm legally accoding to Federal Laws. But note that it must be legal in the state of initiation and the state of destination and the transporting should also be verified to make sure that nothing happens because of a missunderstanding.



Hey Rich,

Absolutely I am with you on knowing how you can legally transport especially because you and I both do quite a bit of traveling.

It is also good that we have reciprocity agreements with so many states. Quite a few of the places that I regularly travel are in with the reciprocity agreements. Now if Illinois will just come on board.
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Brian R. VanCise

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I have a concealed carry from Michigan and many of those in the class were not qualified by the instructor. Anyone who did not qualify was welcome to come to the range free of charge and practice until they did. I worked with my wife for about 20 hours until she could qualify. You have to not only hit the target at 7 yards, but also conceal reaload and hit the target again with 80% accuracy.

Remember that the cops are only minutes away when seconds count.

Hey Scott,

I am glad that your instructor made sure that everyone qualified. Still I would say that probably everyone in your class needs further training to become more proficient. Hitting the target at 7 yards is pretty easy and having gone through the same course as you it is a pretty simple course. (ie. nothing special) Still I think it is great that you and your wife have CPL licenses here in Michigan. The more of us guarding and protecting each other the better.
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That way we can keep the wolves at bay.
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sjansen

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Hey Scott,

I am glad that your instructor made sure that everyone qualified. Still I would say that probably everyone in your class needs further training to become more proficient. Hitting the target at 7 yards is pretty easy and having gone through the same course as you it is a pretty simple course. (ie. nothing special) Still I think it is great that you and your wife have CPL licenses here in Michigan. The more of us guarding and protecting each other the better.
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That way we can keep the wolves at bay.
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I'm with ya. I still make my wife go to the range and practice monthly during the warmer months. Your gun will only get used on you if you are not comfortable with it and do not have the mindset to use it when needed.
 

David Weatherly

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I'm 100% on board with the right to carry. Like others have said, I just wish there were at least some training requirements to do so. I've seen too many people who had no business having a gun get a permit with no problem.

David
 

Deaf Smith

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Well we don't have any training required to vote, and don't think voters cannot mess things up with whom they elect.

We don't require any training on free speech, and speech has caused many a fight and war.

We don't require any training to become a parent or to raise kids.

Vermont and Alaska don't require any training to pack guns concealed or unconcealed. Sure havn't herd of people dieing in the streets in those two states.

I suspect the vast majority of those who really want to pack a gun wil do so with the undertanding they will need to seak advice on the law and on gun handling. Very few are just going to pick up a gun carry with without the realization it's a deadly weapon and they will have to think before they do something rash.

Deaf
 

searcher

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I am all for the right to carry and the right of all citizens that are legally able to own a firearm to pursue the right to carry. I have my CCH and do carry every day. As an instructor here in KS, we do not issue a passing grade to all that take the CCHL class. Most pass, but many do not. Our classes consist of 10 hours of instruction and a range assessment. I would like to see our state range assessment a little more difficult, but it is what it is. After they get their certificate of completion, they go through a background check and have a small waiting period before the sate issues their permit. The one big change I would like to see with CCH is that people have to take additional training after they get their license. Many a person that get their CCHL shoot a minimum and don't take any extra classes. Some make me nervous when they come to additional classes and I wonder if they have ever handled a gun, but I am glad they are at least seeking the training. I, myself, go to additional training classes at a minimum of once every quarter and sometimes once a month. I am a firm believer that a gun in hand is better than a LE on the phone.

Now I am not bashing LEs or their abilities. Some LE guys have some decent skills, but most shoot as bad as the poorly trained. My Wife works at the local couthouse, so I talk to the LE people(HP,SO, PD) daily. I will tell you, I shoot more in one string then they shoot in one year. This, IMO, is pathetic at best.


And on the original topic, John and Vicki Farnam are good people and great instructors. One of the local ranges tries to have them up each year for training.

*rant off*
 

Mark L

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In Mass. a firearms safety class is required from a State Police certified instructor, clear felony record/no convictions punishable by more than two years, then you're at the mercy of the local Chief of Police. They can pretty much do as they please in issuing licenses, restrictions, and revocations. Some towns it's just a formality, others it's simply impossible. I'm waiting for mine now ...
 

Guardian

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Vermont and Alaska don't require any training to pack guns concealed or unconcealed. Sure havn't herd of people dieing in the streets in those two states.

To be fair here, those are not big time crime states there either or very populated states for that matter.

Vermont - 2006, 650,000 give or take a couple thousand, heck my city is 1/4 there already with over 100,000

Alaska - 670,000, same here with my city alone.

I don't want everyone armed that's for sure. I'm getting mine in February along with the wife. I'll probably only carry it while travelling anyways and that's legal here in Texas anyways with some stipulations to it, but on the bike, it will make the difference for me.
 

KenpoTex

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The one big change I would like to see with CCH is that people have to take additional training after they get their license. Many a person that get their CCHL shoot a minimum and don't take any extra classes.
Some make me nervous when they come to additional classes and I wonder if they have ever handled a gun, but I am glad they are at least seeking the training. I, myself, go to additional training classes at a minimum of once every quarter and sometimes once a month. I am a firm believer that a gun in hand is better than a LE on the phone.

Now I am not bashing LEs or their abilities. Some LE guys have some decent skills, but most shoot as bad as the poorly trained.

I agree that most CCW/CHL/whatever holders are not as prepared as they should be. I also agree that most cops aren't as prepared as they should be (and yet...never mind :D).

I do not however believe that CCW holders should be required to take any training. Mostly, this is due to the fact that I am against any regulation or restriction that can lead to more regulation or restriction (which is most of it ;)).
 

Deaf Smith

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I don't want everyone armed that's for sure.

Ah, but who gets to decide who is armed and who is not? See that's the rub. We already exclude drug addicts, felons, psychos, aliens, and the like (even in Vermont and Alaska.) So what is left and who decides who can or cannot. Obama says you have a 2nd amendment right unless you live in a 'high crime area'. Then you don't have that right. So does he decide? What kind of criteria? Need?

See it gets pretty sticky as more and more "don't want them to be armed" are added to the list.

And what's more, just because a law says only so-and-so can be armed does not mean only so-and-so are NOT armed.

Deaf
 

Hudson69

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I really liked that... However, and not to be negative or anything, some of those don't apply if the person who's packing is a dumb ***.
My brother in law just got his concealed weapons permit. He's not a "bad guy," but I really don't feel safe around idiots with guns.

Question: Is it too easy to get a concealed weapons permit? From what I've seen and heard, it is.

Long before I joined the military and even longer before I joined Law Enforcement I had a gun pulled on me. The person doing it was one of those people who fit "idiot" to a "T." He didn't even have a permit, he wasn't 21 yet and couldn't get one. He was doing it because we were having a disagrement and, while I never really felt like he was going to shoot, I didn't like being on the business end of a loaded(?) weapon was ........more than a little worrisome.

He later got kicked out of the Air Force (Security Forces) for possessing hate literature (I think) and he became more and more out of control afterward, when he came back to Utah. I was AF Security Forces as well but joined after him and ended up in Utah but left to pursue civillian law enforcement work in Colorado so didn't run into him for another 7-8 years.

As an LEO I always carry an approved and qualified on firearm. Sometimes this is a snubnosed wheelgun sometimes it is a skinny little single stack 9 but when I go out of state it is usually the big, double stack 9 (15+1 fast moving ways to exit/end a hostile situation I was once told).

Anyway (to make a short story really long) I ran into AKA "Derf" at a mutual friends house I was visiting. He had gotten heavier and was now a security guard and, I was later told, more of a drinker. He had no clue what I had done and he brought up the military right away. Since I was still a Reserve member I told him "Yes, I am still in the Air Force." and left it at that, I never try not to advertise that I am LE, safer I think.

I was not about to bring up him sticking a gun in my face over 10 years ago but didn't want to stick around and talk to this guy anymore. Now I don't know if my attempting to leave spun him up but suddenly he was trying to get me to stay and he was being beligerant and was actually trying to grab my shoulder to keep me there.

I was trying really hard just to slip away but Derf was having none of that so at one point I simply pushed past him and tried to make my getaway (I really wish I had a ninja smoke pellet right then, no lie:)). When I did that he kind of came unglued and began calling me names, shouting really and saying I could leave when he wanted me to leave.

I was about two paces away and was pushing on the screen door to make it outside but knowing that Derf liked guns and had some training in their use I was watching his hands. As I was saying a last goodbye his hands dropped to the but of a Beretta 92FS, 9mm; I know this gun intimately since it is also known as the M9, the standard handgun used by the military and one I carried and carry still off and on for almost 16 years (now).

At the time I just recognized the movements of someone going to gun so I responded as I felt necessary; I wasn't far enough to safely make it outside and go for a run so I went for my gun since it wasn't doing me any good in its holster at the moment.

This isn't a speed issue but I think because I was almost waiting for this to happen and because he was taking his time, not expecting me to be armed, I beat him to the draw; this is the closest I have ever come to shooting someone dead on or off duty.

When I drew I yelled "Stop!" and moved a little. I think Derf was a startled by the yell and the appearence of an equal threat, now directed at his chest less than four feet away. His response was "WTF", a pause and then he started reaching for his gun again.... Thinking back now I dont think he really realized that I was armed as well.

I did then what I still feel was a safe move on my part; as time slowed down I dipped the barrel down and shot a snap kick into his groin. This ended everything then because he went down, I holstered my gun and was able to wrangle a set of handcuffs onto him. Two local PD units arrived as did a supervisor (Sergeant) when I called 911 for an "Officer (off-duty) needs assistance." He got booked, I made a statement and everybody was happy, even the mutual friend who said he was tired of Derf's bigotry, loudness and constant threats.

So I feel I am in synch with the start of the thread and at the same time agree with JBrainard; just because it is a right does not mean you are the right person. Doesn't mean we can do no less to support everyone under the law.

Sorry to drag on, just my .02.
 
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