Car Ownership

[Monroe]

The day before last, we were informed that our insurance is going to double late october. We have clean records and have been driving for 10+ years. Checking a few companies they all say our city has high accident rates.

We use our car about once a week. Our groceries are delivered. Most things are in walking distance. We don't live downtown but we can use our bikes or buses/trains within a reasonable amount of time. We're signed up with an autoshare program, insurance/gas/maintenance etc taken care of. I'm starting to think we're wasting money on our family car. I hate to waste money.

Still, not owning a car is a new concept for us.

Do you think we/most families really need our cars and we're just hanging onto them? Are gas prices and insurance rates going to push more of us out of car ownership? At what point does the cost of owning a car become not worth it?

How much do you think the cost of gas/insurance reach before owning a car becomes impractical?

 

[Carol]

I really like not having to drive everywhere, I do my grocery shopping and most other day-to-day errands on foot. But, I work down in Mass. and I like going up to the mountains on weekends so going without a car wouldn't work for me.

I'd say sell your car and then rent one if you need wheels. I did that in college and that worked out well. Granted that was in the 80s/90s but I think his is an even better option tnow with many car rental companies offering specials on their websites, and some urban areas offering services like zipcar -- sounds like you might have something similar with your autoshare program. If you really need a car in a pinch and your autoshare program is not available, the car rental agencies can have you in wheels in no time.

But, have a backup plan -- take the money you are saving and set it aside so if life changes, you can get back in your own wheels again.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I think much depends on personal circumstances.

I have a friend who lives in NJ near Philly. He travels for a living as I used to do. NJ has monstrous insurance costs, and his driving would basically consist of driving back and forth to the airport. So he sold his car ten years ago and never bought another one. He hires a car (taxi or limo) to take him were he needs to go. He's a very logical guy; and not married to the American concept of always having a car in his driveway. He did the math; this works better for him. I totally get that.

My wife lived in NYC for many years, in Hell's Kitchen. She took the subway everywhere she needed to go, from Long Island to anywhere in the city. She didn't even have a driver's license, let alone a car, until she moved to New Mexico years later. She bought her groceries at the corner bodega, she walked to church and work or took the train. A car would have been a stupid unnecessary expense for her. I get that too.

When I traveled for a living, I had a car just to go to the airport. It was a junker because nice cars get stolen from long-term parking at airports; fact. Then I rented a car wherever I landed. However, not when I worked in San Francisco or NYC. In both places, a rental car was just dumb. You could not get around, nowhere to park, gas was outrageous, etc. I just took public transportation or a taxi in those cities.

On the other hand, I don't live where my friend does; I don't travel for a living anymore. Work is 35 miles from me, one-way. Taxi would be out of the question, and public transportation doesn't exist to take me there. I could move to the city where I work, but in Detroit, that's like giving someone a gun and saying "Please kill me." I'd be dead in a month, so no, that will never happen.

I will therefore say that I 'need' a car. Given my circumstances, it is what it is. I am not prepared to radically reorganize my life to do without a car; it's just way more convenient (and safe) for me to have one.

I don't have a car hangup either. My car is a $500 eBay purchase. I just like the convenience. Michigan car insurance is expensive though. Part of life.

The only thing I ever have a problem with is the aggressive anti-car doofuses who insist that anyone can get by without a car or can take public transportation or can ride a bicycle anywhere they need to go; it's like a religion with those waffle-headed nimrods. Yeah, yeah, whatever. Come live in Detroit as a white boy and tell me how you're going to live in the neighborhood where your work is and ride a bike. You'll be dead in a week, fool.

 

[granfire]

You use the car once a week?

I'd say sell it.
Depending on the day you need it, you can get a rental for a lot less than your car payments, insurance, upkeep, etc.
Even a taxi could be more economical.

I wish we could make due without car, or alt least only one, but it really does not work, though we managed for a while.
Nothing is in walking distance and public transportation does not exist past DART buses, you have to know 24 hours in advance when you are sick and need a ride to the doctor. Luckily there are caps here, unlike that other (bigger) city I used to live at, but they are pretty expensive....

I wish everybody could make it without car, but the landscape in the US is just not laid out this way. Around here you take your life into both hands riding a bike. I am amazed that this neighbor lady of mine has not yet been creamed with her bike!

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Depending on the day you need it, you can get a rental for a lot less than your car payments, insurance, upkeep, etc.

Beware if renting. If you have no car, you have no car insurance, right?

That means you have no car insurance when you rent the car, either.

You can purchase insurance through the rental company; that's quite expensive. It also may be designed to SUPPLEMENT your car insurance, not replace it. So it might still not be legal for you to drive with it in your state; you have to check to see. In any case, it's going to cost a pretty penny; rental car insurance is not cheap.

Also, even for people with car insurance, if you have dropped your comprehensive and collision (because your cars are paid for, or too old, for example), then you do NOT have comprehensive or collision insurance when you rent a car, either. Which means if you crease the fender, you pay for it out of pocket. If someone hits you, you pay to have the car repaired, even if you are not at fault; unless you buy the rental car insurance policy.

http://www.iii.org/individuals/auto/a/rentalcar/

Lastly, since I have rented more cars in my life than most humans have (one car a week for seven straight years), I can tell you this; car rental companies do not make it easy on you. They close at night, you know. That means if you want to return the car after they're closed, too bad; you just rented it for another day. Want to pick it up before they opened? Nope, nothing doing. Or if they do let you pick it up early, you pay, you guessed it, for another day. And of course, depending on where you live, getting to the car rental place and back again can be quite aggravating and time-consuming. Seems you may end up depending on friends and neighbors who do have cars; and let me tell you, doing favors like that gets old fast. Enterprise will 'pick you up' - but be prepared to wait. It happens on their schedule, not yours.

So just FYI on rental cars. They can work; but you have to know what you're getting into.

 

[Monroe]

I used to be happy with used cars until I broke down in an ice storm in butt**** nowhere, Canada.

I've always hung onto a car whether I needed it or not. I think I'm just a little attached to the concept of having a car in my driveway.

I've been told 15 years ago this neighbourhood had barely any transit. But now it's useable.

Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver (plus suburbs) have decent transit. I don't think most of Canada is in the same position. But I think a sizeable chunk of Canadians live in the big cities.

Each year, insurance rates climb and gas prices go up too. Income isn't making significant gains. What's going to happen in Canada and the States if things keep movinf this way? Transit and autoshare are affordable now. Will they stay that way?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I used to be happy with used cars until I broke down in an ice storm in butt**** nowhere, Canada.

I've always hung onto a car whether I needed it or not. I think I'm just a little attached to the concept of having a car in my driveway.

I've been told 15 years ago this neighbourhood had barely any transit. But now it's useable.

Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver (plus suburbs) have decent transit. I don't think most of Canada is in the same position. But I think a sizeable chunk of Canadians live in the big cities.

Each year, insurance rates climb and gas prices go up too. Income isn't making significant gains. What's going to happen in Canada and the States if things keep movinf this way? Transit and autoshare are affordable now. Will they stay that way?

Just FYI, I did try public transportation in Denver once. For a short while.

First off, it turned a 15 minute commute into two hours on the bus, including transfers. Instead of getting up at 6 am to start work at 8, I had to get up at 4 am every day. Second, I often had to deal with the mentally ill and the drug and alcohol abusers. It's so much fun to arrive at work stinking of the rotgut wine that some wino threw up all over several rows of people. That, by the way, was the end for me and public transportation for the most part.

I also tried it when I lived in Kenosha, Wisconsin and worked in Northbrook, Illinois. Had to get up at 2 am to take the bus to Milwaukee, then the train to Northbrook. 45 miles north to go 90 miles south. I got to work by 8 am. Getting home, same thing; left at 5 pm, got home around midnight. How's that for fun? Two hours sleep a night plus what you can catch sleeping on the train? And if you have to work late, after 5 the train has gone, so now you're going to sleep in the office. Great.

I am also addicted to having a car in my driveway. So much so that for many years, I had to have two running cars at all times. If one broke or needed work, at least I had another ready to go. It's not that I had to go anywhere; it's that I had the ability to go anywhere. To me, that's a necessary part of my freedoms.

And these days, I try very hard not to fly, and I can't always take the train when I want to travel out of state on vacation. So driving is what I do. I'd rather drive 14 hours than take a 2 hour plane ride and get groped by the TSA and have my property stolen by airline criminals.

 

[Carol]

Beware if renting. If you have no car, you have no car insurance, right?

That means you have no car insurance when you rent the car, either.

You can purchase insurance through the rental company; that's quite expensive. It also may be designed to SUPPLEMENT your car insurance, not replace it. So it might still not be legal for you to drive with it in your state; you have to check to see. In any case, it's going to cost a pretty penny; rental car insurance is not cheap.

Also, even for people with car insurance, if you have dropped your comprehensive and collision (because your cars are paid for, or too old, for example), then you do NOT have comprehensive or collision insurance when you rent a car, either. Which means if you crease the fender, you pay for it out of pocket. If someone hits you, you pay to have the car repaired, even if you are not at fault; unless you buy the rental car insurance policy.

http://www.iii.org/individuals/auto/a/rentalcar/

Lastly, since I have rented more cars in my life than most humans have (one car a week for seven straight years), I can tell you this; car rental companies do not make it easy on you. They close at night, you know. That means if you want to return the car after they're closed, too bad; you just rented it for another day. Want to pick it up before they opened? Nope, nothing doing. Or if they do let you pick it up early, you pay, you guessed it, for another day. And of course, depending on where you live, getting to the car rental place and back again can be quite aggravating and time-consuming. Seems you may end up depending on friends and neighbors who do have cars; and let me tell you, doing favors like that gets old fast. Enterprise will 'pick you up' - but be prepared to wait. It happens on their schedule, not yours.

So just FYI on rental cars. They can work; but you have to know what you're getting into.

A lot depends on how the companies are structured and what services are available in one's area, and how the local office is run. Many car rentals have associate agreements with other businesses in the area that can accept the car after hours. Many will set up business accounts for an individual as long as they rent once every 3 months or something like that. Makes the profile a bit more visible because the entire staff can see that the driver is a regular customer.

A good friend of mine works for a huge consulting firm, and hardly ever receives local assignments. Monday morning she takes a cab to the airport (company-paid) and flies to her destination. She flies back usually Thursday night and takes a cab home. Friday morning she gets a weekend rental special from Enterprise, and turns the car in either Sunday night or Monday morning on the way to the airport. She hasn't owned a car in a very long time. Its not that she can't afford it.....she makes serious money doing what she does. I asked her why she does this one out of sheer curiosity...why go through the hassle of renting a car, when you have the $$ to afford just about whatever you want to drive? She says she saves both money and time by not having to deal with repairs, oil changes, tires, or accidents. I was out with her once at the supermarket, we were making our way to a parking spot when an elderly driver backed out without looking and hit us in the rear quarter panel. Even though the car was drivable, the agency came right out with a replacement car.

For her the choice definitely works. Not a choice for everyone, sure.

 

[Monroe]

AutoShare members are building an insurance record (similar to owning their own car). It could save you $1,000's a year if you do have to buy a car down the road. http://www.autoshare.com/how.html

I worked at a rental car company through college. I spent a little time with customers (that didn't go well, so I returned to previous department), but liked working with the cars and learning them. Big company, big selection.

 

[Monroe]

Just FYI, I did try public transportation in Denver once. For a short while.

I guess Denver is different. Public transit isn't the whelm of the completely broke here. We have Presto passes, rapid service, heated bus stops with a screen to tell you when the next bus or train is coming. I don't drive the kids downtown, we take transit with the kids all the time. For Canada Day, we took transit to see the fireworks to avoid traffic. I haven't had a problem with vomit covered seats. You make me sound like such a pansy.

My husband used to drive to work. He realized something. It took him 45 minutes to get from his office, to the highway. That was the same time the second train head to our house left. It takes the same time commuting by car or train. The traffic really is that bad. Too many times, I've parked my car because it's faster to walk.

I think my biggest issue is the empty driveway and garage. I probably don't need it. I just feel like I do.

 

[MJS]

The day before last, we were informed that our insurance is going to double late october. We have clean records and have been driving for 10+ years. Checking a few companies they all say our city has high accident rates.

We use our car about once a week. Our groceries are delivered. Most things are in walking distance. We don't live downtown but we can use our bikes or buses/trains within a reasonable amount of time. We're signed up with an autoshare program, insurance/gas/maintenance etc taken care of. I'm starting to think we're wasting money on our family car. I hate to waste money.

Still, not owning a car is a new concept for us.

Do you think we/most families really need our cars and we're just hanging onto them? Are gas prices and insurance rates going to push more of us out of car ownership? At what point does the cost of owning a car become not worth it?

How much do you think the cost of gas/insurance reach before owning a car becomes impractical?

Cars are needed. I have a grocery store within walking distance of my condo, yet walking there, I'd be taking my life in my hands, due to the traffic. Additionally, carrying everything back would be difficult if not impossible. New England is famous for their winters, and this past winter sucked! Without 4wd, a good majority of people weren't going anywhere. Does gas concern me? Of course. My wife and each have an SUV. I gassed one up yesterday and it was over $50. Could I have my food delivered? Sure.

Its a 15min drive to work, with the traffic for me, 20-30 for my wife. Impossible to ride a bike or walk.

The smartcars or more fuel efficient ones....some of them arent bad. A week ago, I was looking at a Chevy Volt. Not a bad looking car. OTOH, it was $41,000. Really not that bad, considering my SUVs were around that price. Of course, what I'd save in gas...well, thats a no brainer..lol. But, when it comes to the bad weather, transporting my dog and other people, the SUVs are the best route for me.

Going on what you said about yourself, personally, I'd say either get rid of the car or buy one that isn't going to cost a small fortune, that way if you need it, you'll have it.

 

[jks9199]

For me -- a car is a necessary. I don't have an option about going to work, nor do we have public transit that would do the job. Carpooling is tricky, as well, since I can be held over with little or no warning. I also have court and overtime assignments to deal with.

What I'd suggest for the OP is to park their car for a month. Put the keys in a drawer, and leave 'em there. Use the autoshare program, walk for your groceries, etc. At the end of the month, figure out if it worked for you or not.

 

[Omar B]

I absolutely need a car. I live in two states! When I'm in Queens I need it for work and traveling for work, and when I'm in Fort Lauderdale, it's more of the same.

I used to own a Lexus ES350 because I wanted somethign nice, fast, comfortable and reliable. But some jerk t boned me 2 years ago nearly killing my family. Since then I drive a cheaper car, I am trading up in January, till then it's a Saturn Ion Redline. I got brand new for practically nothing when the company shut down almost too neatly coinciding with my accident. I like it, it's a simple little car of the same class as a Corolla or a Civic, or an Accent, except it's a Chevy which is a plus for me.

As teens my buds and I worked and lived in the city so we took the train everywhere, but most of us had cars. It was always an event to go out to the shore, or to a concert, or camping trip, or anything where we had to drive. First it was deciding who's car to drive, then everyone jockeying to get their turn the next time we stopped. It was my Mitsubishi Galant, my buddy Mike's Ford Taurus, Pete's Subaru Legacy, PJ's Rav 4.

 

[Monroe]

I don't know what New England winters are like. But Southern Ontario winters are pretty rough. Some winters, I'm only shoveling a few times a month. Some winters we are endlessly shoveling snow. I get stuck in the snow ruts, but rocking the car between first and reverse a few times solves it. It was trickier to rock a sub compact out of snow ruts. I've noticed taking a car, I still end up in massive parking lots or walking a few blocks from and to parking spaces. Got to bundle up either way.

The biggest car we could get in standard transmission was a Dodge Caliber. (I never could get used to automatic.) It isn't a big issue with the insurance. It's our location that is causing the high price. We like the area, so we're not moving. We already use the autoshare program when we need a minivan or truck. No problems so far.

I don't expect other people to give up their cars. I'm more wondering if other people are wondering if the cost/benefit is worth it. If I try to look objectively at car ownership, is this a waste of money? I guess the growing density of the population is causing the area to have high insurance/accident rates and also causing the ridiculous traffic and parking issues. I guess these issues aren't happening as rapidly for most of you.

 

[Monroe]

You know, my problem with relying on carpooling is if too many people take this route, those still owning cars are going to be pressed upon a lot. Plus fitting our family in peoples cars with car seats isn't going to happen with a lot of people.

 

[Carol]

I don't know what New England winters are like. But Southern Ontario winters are pretty rough. Some winters, I'm only shoveling a few times a month. Some winters we are endlessly shoveling snow. I get stuck in the snow ruts, but rocking the car between first and reverse a few times solves it. It was trickier to rock a sub compact out of snow ruts. I've noticed taking a car, I still end up in massive parking lots or walking a few blocks from and to parking spaces. Got to bundle up either way.

The biggest car we could get in standard transmission was a Dodge Caliber. (I never could get used to automatic.) It isn't a big issue with the insurance. It's our location that is causing the high price. We like the area, so we're not moving. We already use the autoshare program when we need a minivan or truck. No problems so far.

I don't expect other people to give up their cars. I'm more wondering if other people are wondering if the cost/benefit is worth it. If I try to look objectively at car ownership, is this a waste of money? I guess the growing density of the population is causing the area to have high insurance/accident rates and also causing the ridiculous traffic and parking issues. I guess these issues aren't happening as rapidly for most of you.

I'm a few hours south of the Quebec border at the same lattitude as Toronto. We have the same four seasons, Winter, Still Winter, Mud, Construction. :lol: (C'mon Frank Raud, you gotta laugh at that one ) I won't drive anything that isn't 4wd. I traded my last "car" in 1996 and have owned small SUVs ever since. Parking and high insurance rates are huge issues here...but many of us deal with it differently, hence the phenomenon of "urban sprawl". In the early 90s, I left Boston for the near suburbs, late 90s I moved to a suburban belt a bit further away, 10 years later I left the suburbs for the exurbs, or whatever they call the fringe communities, and now that I finally found a starter home I can afford, I'm staying this far out. Many others are doing the same.

 

[Monroe]

Carol - We have 3 seasons in Toronto. Winter, Mud and Construction.

I don't even know what my issue with automatic's is. My left foot always reaches for that clutch and I'm always trying to change gears. I don't have interest in AWD. I find snow fun to drive in and getting stuck is an interesting challenge in problem solving.

I prefer to live downtown over the surburbs, but we're good with a surburb not too far from downtown. I didn't like living outside of a city. It's nice to visit the countryside, I just don't want to live there.

 

[MJS]

I don't know what New England winters are like. But Southern Ontario winters are pretty rough. Some winters, I'm only shoveling a few times a month. Some winters we are endlessly shoveling snow. I get stuck in the snow ruts, but rocking the car between first and reverse a few times solves it. It was trickier to rock a sub compact out of snow ruts. I've noticed taking a car, I still end up in massive parking lots or walking a few blocks from and to parking spaces. Got to bundle up either way.

The biggest car we could get in standard transmission was a Dodge Caliber. (I never could get used to automatic.) It isn't a big issue with the insurance. It's our location that is causing the high price. We like the area, so we're not moving. We already use the autoshare program when we need a minivan or truck. No problems so far.

I don't expect other people to give up their cars. I'm more wondering if other people are wondering if the cost/benefit is worth it. If I try to look objectively at car ownership, is this a waste of money? I guess the growing density of the population is causing the area to have high insurance/accident rates and also causing the ridiculous traffic and parking issues. I guess these issues aren't happening as rapidly for most of you.

This past winter was by far, the worst, with record amounts of snow. Really, every year is a guessing game. Its one of those things where you just have to wait and see what happens.

As for ownership being worth it....for me and my wife, it is worth it. We have to work, and much like JKS, I go into work every day, with the possibility of getting forced to work another shift. Carpooling for me isn't really an option. As I said, it seems that in your situation, owning a car really isn't that big of a necessity, so I'd say not having one is 1 option or 2, downsize to something that wont cost a fortune in gas, payments or ins.

 

[Flea]

In my previous city I advertised my beloved little 15mpg pickup for sale twice. Each time, an emergency intervened that would have been impossible to address by mass transit, so I withdrew the ad.

My new home town has one of the best public transportation systems in the country. I didn't choose my current housing with the bus system in mind, but when the prediction of $5/gallon came down last year I found myself to be perfectly situated. I've had no regrets. I save myself around $200 a month, and I've freed up several hours a week in my schedule while someone else does the driving. No breathing fumes at gas stations or repair shops, no constant detailing (which for me usually just meant shoveling out the fast food wrappers and dog hair, but even so!) no churning around and around parking lots competing for spaces, no shell game looking for the cheapest gas, no locking myself out of the car. And best of all, I have no problem ordering a beer or a nice glass of wine when I eat out!

When I sold the truck, I invested some of the money in top-of-the-line gear for my loverly Specialized. This year's purchase is a long raincoat from LL Bean and waterproof Merrells. And, next paycheck, a fancy waterproof backpack for this wet climate. Most of the monthly savings on car ownership go into my nest egg.

Downsides? It really sucks when I miss the bus. It can throw my whole day off, because the shortest wait around here is half an hour for the next one. As others have mentioned, not having insurance is very prohibitive for renting a car. This has kept me from any hiking or camping this summer, which I find unacceptable. I did find a great hiking club locally through Meetup.com, so that problem is solved. I can take my cats in a carrier on the bus, but getting anywhere with my dog means bumming a ride with someone. Spontaneous dog-romps in the park are a thing of the past. He's old enough that he doesn't need that kind of exercise any more, but we both still miss it. Now that the rain has set in for the winter, I expect to spend a fur piece at coffeeshops that just happen to be warm and dry and located next to bus stops when I have time to kill.

The good mass transit here makes it feasible. Everything runs on time, the buses are clean, and good behavior is enforced. I got myself a Droid for good measure to drown out the inevitable howling babies, and I think it's one of the best purchases I've ever made. Overall I'm thrilled with being car-free. I know I'll change my mind eventually, but it's perfect for me right now.